Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 18-03-2005, 23:09   #1
Moderator
 
Boracay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pelican Bay, Great Sandy National Park
Boat: Steel Roberts Offshore 44
Posts: 5,175
Images: 18
Steel Yacht Designs for Blue Water

Could I get some opinions about the suitability of steel yacht designs in the 45' range for blue water cruising.
While I am thinking mainly of the designs by Ted Brewer, Joe Adams, Dudley Dix and Bruce Roberts-Goodson there are many designers of steel yachts in this size.
These boats all seem to be arround 15 tonne displacement, 14' beam, with drafts in the 5' to 7' range.
While much is known of the characteristics of the fibreglass production boats and their suitability for cruising there has been very little discussion on how good steel yachts are in this area.
I am particularly interested in comments relating to comfort at sea, ability to self steer, and how good they are for short handed sailing.
__________________

__________________
Boracay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-03-2005, 00:42   #2
Senior Cruiser
 
Alan Wheeler's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Marlborough Sounds. New Zealand
Boat: Hartley Tahitian 45ft. Leisure Lady
Posts: 8,038
Images: 102
Ganley would be another that comes to mind.
Size, weight, draft all come down to the initial design. The medium the boat is built from doesn't have so much of an impact on the measurements as such. Just about any design can be built from any material. But certain aspects that balance the way a design floats, handles and sails do need configuring and imparted intot he design to suit the material she is built from.
This criteria is what affects several of your later questions, like abiltiy to steer and to some point, comfort. But comfort is also part of design. And every design will handle different. Not just because of what the design is built from as such. However, weight will have a bearing. A lighter boat tends to be responsive and bobs like a cork. A heavey boat is sluggish, but will be solid under foot.
The short handed sailing part is really in how the boat is fitted out and little or nothing to do with the material she is made from.
Every material has weekness's and a strengths. Well apart from Ferrocement where it is all strengths
Steel hulls are cold and noisy. So they need extra care in insulation and sound proofing. They are prone to corrosion, but that depends on how well you paint, especially in the nooks and cranies. One big advantage is the ease of build. You forgot something?? just weld it on. Want a little extra thingy there? just weld it on. I have seen the odd steel boat built that I wonder if they still float today, but built well, a steel boat can be a strong vessel. Or you could go Ferrocement have the best of all worlds.
__________________

__________________
Wheels

For God so loved the world..........He didn't send a committee.
Alan Wheeler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2005, 08:52   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Boat: Saugeen Witch, Colvin design vessel name: Witchcraft
Posts: 383
Images: 14
Tom Colvin boats are designed for steel or aluminum. These are not production boats. One buys the plans, and gets lifetime support from the designer.
We have one of his designs, namely, the Saugeen Witch. She was commissioned in 1982 and is still going strong.
Any boat requires maitenance. Our steel hull mostly requires painting in that regard. One can repair via welding should one need too. Thus far we have not required this.
Single hand sailing and self steering are a matter of design, sail plan etc. , more than a matter of material the boat is built from.
Cheers
Fair Winds
Witchcraft
__________________
witchcraft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2005, 12:44   #4
Senior Cruiser
 
Alan Wheeler's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Marlborough Sounds. New Zealand
Boat: Hartley Tahitian 45ft. Leisure Lady
Posts: 8,038
Images: 102
That "repairing " comment witchcraft, is one thing I have always considered a plus for steel. I reckon if you carried a small welder onboard, if you should ever hit something and pierce the hull, you could weld a temporary enough repair to get you to safety. Oorr, y7ou can at least find a welder in most any port. Aluminium is a lot more difficult to repair.
__________________
Wheels

For God so loved the world..........He didn't send a committee.
Alan Wheeler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2005, 15:51   #5
Old Salts
 
bobola's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 115
And for your steel sailboat a nice piece of gear might be something like this 200amp alternator/welder...



__________________
Bob...
bobola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2005, 06:38   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Boat: Saugeen Witch, Colvin design vessel name: Witchcraft
Posts: 383
Images: 14
We consider the repairing options an advantage as well. A tougher hull is also an advantage in our minds.
A friend who is a welder says learning to weld is not difficult. We have done some welding when we lived on the farm.
Certainly steel is easier to weld than aluminum.
One thing, dont forget your anodes on a steel hull. There are necessary to avoid eletrolysis.
Fair Winds
Witchcraft
__________________
witchcraft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2005, 09:45   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Cheaspeake Bay
Posts: 93
One thing that is not often mentioned about repairing/adding onto steel boats by welding is that the paint on both sides will be ruined for one or two feet around. It will all need to be carefully sanded away and primed/multi-coated. And if you can't get to the other side, corrosion will start quickly.

Incidentally, another good steel boat designer is Van de Stadt.
__________________
Don't use a big word when a diminutive
one will suffice.
tenknots is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2005, 22:32   #8
Senior Cruiser
 
Alan Wheeler's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Marlborough Sounds. New Zealand
Boat: Hartley Tahitian 45ft. Leisure Lady
Posts: 8,038
Images: 102
Heat damage from welding should only be ruffly 1" across. If you Mig, and are good, this can be kept in even greater control.
Not to mention the fact that you will have to grind away the paint on the weld area first anyway.
__________________
Wheels

For God so loved the world..........He didn't send a committee.
Alan Wheeler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-03-2005, 07:22   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Boat: Saugeen Witch, Colvin design vessel name: Witchcraft
Posts: 383
Images: 14
Any time we remove paint, we replace it immediately. Thus fair there has been no problem with our method.
One thing we noted this winter, was frost on bolts on our cabin ceiling. THis was solved by adding a little extra insulation on our cabin roof.
The winter aboard has been good.
Fair Winds
Witchcraft
__________________
witchcraft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-11-2007, 14:34   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Queensland, Australia
Boat: Piver Loadstar 12.5 metres
Posts: 374
Van de Stadt is another design crew worth noting. I have spoken to many who have owned them--all good reports. Excellent re-sale of Van de Stadt vessels--their good reputation carries on.

Sorry--did not see the earlier post. Agree about Tom Colvin designs.
__________________
Mike Banks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-11-2007, 14:48   #11
Registered User
 
Microship's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: living aboard in Friday Harbor, WA
Boat: Vic Franck Delta 50
Posts: 699
Images: 7
I have an Amazon 44 and love it... and an excellent resource for steel boats in general is the Metal Boat Society Forum.

Steve
__________________
M/V Datawake
Nomadic Research Labs
Microship is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-11-2007, 17:33   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10
van de stadt 34

[quote=Mike Banks;111765]Van de Stadt is another design crew worth noting. I have spoken to many who have owned them--all good reports. Excellent re-sale of Van de Stadt vessels--their good reputation carries on.

I hope someone on the forum can help me out. I'm considering buying a Van de Stadt 34 in steel. It has the deep fin keel and the spade rudder. I've been told though, that this combination will require substantial attention to the helm and will be more difficult to balance than a configuration with the skeg-mounted rudder - given it is a flat bottomed boat. On a test sail there was quite a bit of weather helm - but that could be put down to poor sail trim.

Does anyone have cruising experience with a VDS 34 with a spade rudder, and has it tracked/balance reasonably well - especially with windvane self-steering?

Appreciate the help.

Chicky
__________________
chicky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-11-2007, 19:17   #13
Senior Cruiser
 
DeepFrz's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Boat: None at this time
Posts: 7,930
I guess you are not interested in semi-custom production boats but Waterline Yachts makes some nice steel boats.

Designers and builder's of fine metal boats >> Waterline Yachts
__________________
The Blue Dot Campaign. This Changes Everything.
DeepFrz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-11-2007, 19:52   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Queensland, Australia
Boat: Piver Loadstar 12.5 metres
Posts: 374
For a cruising yacht I prefer a long keel and skeg rudder. The performance is less but where I sail there is a bit of flotsam around and the last thing I need is a broken rudder or one wrapped in net--where one would have to dive to cut it free. Sometimes there are sharks.

Fin keels make it difficult to beach the vessel for a quick scrub--and where tidal falls are great--a grounding can cause the vessel to flood. The boat falls on its side as the tide drops--then the tide floods the vessel when it returns. With a long keel one can prop her up if one has to. Usually one does not need to. In coral getting stuck on a reef is best done in a steel boat--and only one with a long keel gives you any chance of easily getting her off unaided. Something to think about when you intend to cruise rather than scoot around the buoys.

If your cruising is usually in deep water the fin keel option with spade might be the go. Not for me though. Shallow estuaries and coral reefs comprise much of the coast and the anchorages are often in the lee of a sand bar where the water is only a few metres deep.


There is another advantage to skeg rudders where the rudder sits on a shoe--the rudder does not head for the bottom if the tiller shaft shears a key and one has to remove the tiller and retaining nut to fit a new key. It has happened to me--but the rudder stayed in place and consequently the sea did not come up the rudder shaft.

While I am on the subject--some provision for a jury rudder is a good idea. There is always the chance of rudder damage--especially in coral. A trimaran was recently lost where the rudder malfunctioned--probably grounded or hit a semi-submersed obstruction, and the vessel sank.
__________________
Mike Banks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-11-2007, 00:12   #15
Moderator
 
Boracay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pelican Bay, Great Sandy National Park
Boat: Steel Roberts Offshore 44
Posts: 5,175
Images: 18
Forget the sailing, look at the bilge...

The major problem with all steel boats is that if water can collect on the inside then they will rust remarkably quickly. Even more so if it is salt water.

I built a 6.5m Van de Stadt Sea Mini 21 of ply some time ago and it sailed beautifully.

Van de Stadt has a well deserved reputation for fine designs. I would be very surprised if there were a problem with the sailing qualities of a Van de Stadt 34 built to plan.

It's still a steel boat. If you want really good sailing qualities go for plastic.
__________________

__________________
Rust never sleeps
Boracay Blog.
Boracay is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ferro Cement Hulls ? marleman Monohull Sailboats 1064 06-12-2017 17:11
Nigel Caulder on Hoses GordMay Construction, Maintenance & Refit 19 30-06-2015 13:14



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:16.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.