Steel Boats and Welding

[haidan]

Oh yeah 2 people, for somethings 3 but except for heavy lifting jobs any more than that and you'd need two welding machines for it to be effective, also having someone inside welding, while another person is grinding is not really an option as it so damn loud.
Another guy I know paid welding students to weld up the boat during the day then he'd do all the grinding himself later after work. You should get Alex Christies Video from him, it's well worth it, really it's quite amazing watching the a boat go together so fast with two or three people working on it. That's my boat in the video. With the video and the pictures from the pictures you can buy on the MOM site and the plans/book from Brent you could build a boat no problem.

dvd:

Origamiboats: The Art of Frameless Steel Boatbuilding - Home

pictures:

SV M.O.M. - Photo CD & Power Point presentations

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

So, let me ask, if you had the funds. What do you think the optimal number of workers would be needed to get the hull, fittings and basic interior welding complete before sending to the interior guy - the fastest time? For example, would 3 people working on it be more optimal than 4 eg. after a certain number, communication breaks down and you also end up getting in each others way without actually saving time.

Curious on how many people it would take in a yard to get the job complete in the fastest time.

[bangkaboat]

"On my own, maybe although the hull would be difficult doing the deck and trim wouldn't be too hard. There are some that have been built by people all over the world just like you were asking, I think trying to do it with out other boats to take ideas from would be hard." I would suggest that a proper set of plans should be all that is required to build a boat as described by those same plans. Yet, "how to do..." seems to be the common question asked in many phases of construction & fitting out of the "Swain boats".

"30 bucks an hour isn't that significant of a wage, any trained professional will be double or triple that." Not so. I think that you'd find most shipyard & boatyard tradespersons are in the $25-35/hr. category, sans room & board.

"Why would I need to calculate the ballast and displacement those things are in the plans - things like this are why you buy the plans from a boat designer." Given that each boat is built according to the owner's whim(within reasonable parameters), there will be differences in displacement, ballast(trim/stability) requirements.

For those reading this thread whom may be thinking of building a metal boat, there is much discussion on the metal vs. alum topic, the Swain versions of the "origami" method of construction vs. traditional design & construction, etc., some worthy consideration being located on the following links:

Transverse frame calculation - Boat Design Forums

Origami steel yacht construction - Page 9 - Boat Design Forums

Welding a steel hull - Boat Design Forums

[SaltyMonkey]

Ok lets just say for sake of argument and for a rough calculation $50 per hour.

For two hires 80 hr * $50 = $4k per week

Do you think it unreasonable to finish the hull, deck, and basic fasteners in 4 weeks with 2 welders + yourself?

[haidan]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

Ok lets just say for sake of argument and for a rough calculation $50 per hour.

For two hires 80 hr * $50 = $4k per week

Do you think it unreasonable to finish the hull, deck, and basic fasteners in 4 weeks with 2 welders + yourself?

Maybe if they know what they're doing, that would of been about the amount that Brent was payed to build my hull to the state I got it. But two welders who know what they are doing is crucial, and if you're going to pay someone a professional wage like that, they should be professionals in what they are doing, most welders have never built a boat before. I would say you're going to be better off doing as much of it your self, this teaches you, I now have complete confidence in fixing just about anything on my boat as except for the sheet winches, engine, sails and head I built - this is a priceless asset.

[SaltyMonkey]

Very good point made haiden

[haidan]

"I would suggest that a proper set of plans should be all that is required to build a boat as described by those same plans. Yet, "how to do..." seems to be the common question asked in many phases of construction & fitting out of the "Swain boats".

Often I find Brent's info to be somewhat lacking in detail, he always has answered my questions and more often than not I just really had to go back and re read what was in his book, all the info to build a boat is there, and many boats have been built before either of these other sources. But they are most helpful mainly because of the medium, a picture speaks a thousand words and a video says even more. Pictures will help you visualize what to build and the video shows one how to manipulate the metal better than any text could do, (which is why they made it), there are many ways of doing the same task some work better than others.
I imagine in any build there are a lot of questions about how to do this and that, there are tricks for sure and the origami method is not something one can read about in a large plethora of books, there has never been a lot of writing about it, as it's a fairly new method. Of what I know of the Brent boats around here they are usually finished and even usually by the people who started them so there must be enough detail given or else that wouldn't happen would it.

Not so. I think that you'd find most shipyard & boatyard tradespersons are in the $25-35/hr. category, sans room & board.
most welders I know of start around 60 or 70 an hour and those are ones that may not even have touched a boat before.


Given that each boat is built according to the owner's whim(within reasonable parameters), there will be differences in displacement, ballast(trim/stability) requirements.

That's not exactly following the plans then is it, which you seem to think need to be so finely detailed to begin with. From what I understand when you change some crucial part of a design you run it by the designer to see what they say about it and what changes need to be made, these boat are no different. Mine was built to stock, so I didn't need to worry about changing any of that. I think any changes that would merit a change in ballast would be a fairly large divergence from the plans, and may not fall into that "reasonable parameter" range. If you're buying a set of plans from someone why would you go and dramatically change them, why not just buy plans you're happy with to begin with?

[Yachts66]

I think the going rate for trades people is more a function of locality than anything else haidan. If you're in the right part of Oregon experienced welders can be had for $15 an hour or even less. Also, our dear leader has created some government programs whereby you can pick up experienced welders for as little as $12 an hour and dear leader even pays all the employment taxes etc. So, there are deals out there if you know where to look.

I've read the hull only constitutes 20% of the cost of a boat, so all these numbers need to be looked at in that perspective. Even a small marine diesel and gear will set you back close to $15k (Thinking 75hp Yanmar here) and if you get anything but a fixed prop another $3.5k for that and we haven't even mentioned thrust bearings, cutlass bearings, shaft bearings, CV joints, etc and the labor to install it all.

Regards,

Thomas

[SaltyMonkey]

Firstly, in this hypothetical, I was trying to get a maximum estimation of labour costs...not a minimum associated to putting together the hull and fittings, not a "bargain" deal but building it with quality in mind and with workers you can trust will get the job completed...and that last is very important. I don't believe 12-15 dollars an hour is a) quite an incentive for that b) is respectful of the quality of labour I would be looking for or trying to draw. I'm not going to the USG to get slave labour. I mentioned $50 as a high mark, not only as a measurement of that quality, but also room for the possibility of insurance and housing etc.

For the engine, why is this being brought up? We didn't include anything related to the material costs of the hull. We were only discussing labour costs. And what makes you believe $15k? We never said the engine has to be new which this seems to imply. More importantly, the associated labour was never meant to be in the original equation anymore than rigging, interior work, or outfitting was. Those are separate estimations for discussions, and they involve other professional skills.

To sum up the original:

What would it take in terms of time, labour and cost to professionally build a hull, deck, and fittings in the shortest amount of time - # of professional workers, reasonable wage, expected time to complete. Haiden's estimate I believe was two workers. OK, that's a start and he brought up good points about finding welders with that experience and possibly losing important knowledge by having someone else do that work. But, I'd still like to figure out how to get the boat complete - not in two years but asap and at a reasonable cost and within a range of quality.

FYI - in some earlier posts we discussed how much it might cost to do it cheaply, and I believe the estimate came to between 20-30 $k - materials included

[Vic de Beer]

Salty and Haidan.
Having gone through the process that you've been discussing here for the last few pages.... It took me 2 years (working by myself, while my buddy Steward was working on his boat) to finish the hull of my 30 ft Seatrader.... that means ... working just about every weekend.
Most of the time was taken up by welding and then followed by the subsequent straightening of panels (distortion from the welding). Even though I took my time doing the welding and staggering the welds as much as possible... i.e. welding a 2" section in the bow, and then switching and doing a simmilar section in the stern.
The frames on the boat are spaced at 18" centres and the frames were stitch-welded to the hull plating... regardless, the hull still looked like a hungry horse and I had to spend hours getting rid of these dents and bulges (I did not use any filler or body putty). After the welding I inspected every inch of welding using die-penetrant.
The interion also took a considerable amount of time as everything had to be cut, trial fitted , shaped and the fitted again, before removing it again for painting and varnishing.
Suffice to say, the more haste, the less speed.
Try and make the building part of your sailing experience and enjoy it......

[anjou]

This is the start of my boat. The cradle in the centre is the engine mount.

[Yachts66]

Whose design is that Anjou? How far along are you now?

Regards,

Thomas

[Vic de Beer]

Oh my .... does it ever bring back memories.... :-)

[anjou]

I took the latest pix today so what you see is all there is.
Its my own design and is a cross between a standard British widebeam canal boat, but incorporating some of the hull features of a replica Dutch barge.

Hardest part is the stern because of the compound curve and transition from vertical side to the side chine which is sloping out.

[bangkaboat]

Salty,
My understanding is that Haidan bought an existing hull/deck/keels/coachhouse/pilothouse, albeit, requiring some metal work to be completed, for $17,000 , which was, allegedly, what the previous owner had invested in the partial build. So, added to the cost would be more steelwork(finish welding, grinding, adding tanks/interior/exterior fixtures), blasting, primer & paint, insulation, propulsion system, interior, deck-fittings, mast/boom/rig, etc. . Then, yard/equipment rentals/purchases, consumables, etc. . Yes, you can save a lot of money by "scrap-hunting" if it appeals to you, though I don't know if it fits your "ASAP" requirement.

I can't speak about your area, but if you were building up here, I could find you several boat-experienced steelworkers at $30/hour. The $60 to $70 that Haidan refers to must be for hiring a mobile welder - who will bring his/her own rig - as that is about what we usually charge for such work. As most amateur boatbuilders seem to underestimate the cost of their build, I, and others I know, charge fairly reasonable amounts. Presently, I have two clients that I charge $45/$50hr and supply my own machine/cutting equipment, but they must cover consumables. Though I have worked for much cheaper on two occasions(one time for free), due to the nature of each situation, $30/hr. is my standard charge(without gear). You would be better off, imho, to hire a fabricator, than a welder, as some welders are of the "tell me where & when" variety & wish no involvement in the fabricating & fitting process. Once you have your boat all tacked up, if your fabricator is skilled, he/she can weld it up, otherwise you can hire a competent welder & give them a welding schedule. The shipyards & drydocks in The US & Canada have been hurting a fair bit over the past 1/2 dozen years, so you shouldn't find a lack of capable steelworkers.

Haidan, after reading your responses, I'd suggest that I would agree with your designer plan points, in an "ideal" world. I'm not interested in going down that long discussion path & tying up this thread, however, as it has been gone through so many times, here and elsewhere. I wish you the best of luck with your boat.

[Yachts66]

Anjou, thanks for the pics, I hope you post more as your project moves along.

Regards,

Thomas