Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 26-06-2010, 20:32   #271
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
Thank you Y66, and as reward I would like to make you a beta tester for my Robo-Anchor with extra large mag wheels for those snaky parts of the Columbia!
__________________

__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2010, 23:06   #272
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,321
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
SaltyMonkey prefers all stainless steel from the scrap yard than galvanized dodo dip, and he thinks you people are way too concerned over the weld quality which is really subjective anyway. If it looks good and you can see some penetration that's about all anyone can ask for. The weld will outlast the metal anyway even if you don't make a theoretical 70k lbs fit. And work and time? Come on, this is nothing. I could get three done in an afternoon and still have time for tea and singsong fun with Lady Marmaladia.
Congratulation you have become a true dreamer (people who intend to do something but know little about how to do it) and if you make a success of yours dreams be pleased very few people achieve this. I am looking for a thread on the same subject written by achievers, anyone can point me to one?
For the one who can read French.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	moi.jpg
Views:	92
Size:	444.0 KB
ID:	17352  
__________________

__________________
chala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2010, 23:56   #273
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
Chala - you might have missed the positive path. Nay, a superior mental attitude found only in "beginners mind" can wipe away any doubt of failure allowing us to see the whole to be successful. Small doubts and setbacks do not stand in the way once you see the whole. It allows you into action. I'm sure your frenchman will agree, although he has a habit of not showing up where promised...
__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2010, 02:15   #274
Moderator
 
Boracay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pelican Bay, Great Sandy National Park
Boat: Steel Roberts Offshore 44
Posts: 5,175
Images: 18
Not just action...

It's not just action that is required.

Perseverance, resources (and resourcefulness), realism and the ability to learn - these are not part of dreaming.
__________________
Rust never sleeps
Boracay Blog.
Boracay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2010, 03:40   #275
Registered User
 
anjou's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Malvernshire, on the sunny side of the hill.
Boat: 50' steel canal and river cruiser
Posts: 1,905
This sounds like good old blacksmithing. Heat untill cherry red and keep working it with a hammer. Theres nothing new under the sun, its all been done before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
Explosive welding is a solid state welding process, which uses a controlled explosive detonation to force two metals together at high pressure. The resultant composite system is joined with a durable, metallurgical bond ...

... The metals do not commingle, they are atomically bonded. Due to this fact, any metal may be welded to any metal (i.e.- copper to steel; titanium to stainless) ...

Introduction to Explosive Welding ➥ Introduction to Explosive Welding

See also ➥ High Energy Metals, Inc.
__________________
www.amy-artimis.blogspot.com
anjou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2010, 03:42   #276
Registered User
 
anjou's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Malvernshire, on the sunny side of the hill.
Boat: 50' steel canal and river cruiser
Posts: 1,905
I cant believe this thread is still going.
Saltymonkey, are you going to stop talking about it and just get on with it?

Nova Scotia tourist information used to have a book of dreams. Stuff to do on vacation. It was called 'Doers and Dreamers'
Which one are you?
__________________
www.amy-artimis.blogspot.com
anjou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2010, 04:49   #277
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,572
Images: 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by anjou View Post
This sounds like good old blacksmithing. Heat untill cherry red near melting and keep working it with a hammer. Theres nothing new under the sun, its all been done before.
Indeed; though explosive welding might be to forged welding, what instant potatoes are to classic mashed.

In forge welding the pieces to be welded are heated to what is generally referred to as "welding heat". For mild steel, most smiths judge this by an intense yellow or white colour. At this temperature the steel is near molten.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2010, 06:22   #278
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Wells, Vt
Boat: 42ft Colvin Gazelle - TLA HLA
Posts: 504
Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
Indeed; though explosive welding might be to forged welding, what instant potatoes are to classic mashed.

In forge welding the pieces to be welded are heated to what is generally referred to as "welding heat". For mild steel, most smiths judge this by an intense yellow or white colour. At this temperature the steel is near molten.
Hey Gord, sounds like you may used to "heat it and beat it" yourself at one time...?

If you're going to try forge welding, start with a clean fire, plenty of fresh 'coke' under and on top ofyour work to be joined (you want a reducing atmosphere and also a good thorough 'soaking to your heat), flux with "20 mule team" straight Borax (much cheaper than commercial fluxes and better IMHO) and watch for a molten, glassy look to the surfaces. When you remove them from the fire they should be just starting to spark, not burning. Then carefully and quickly lap them on the anvil and excite the molecules further with presure from pounding the living daylight out of it! Do keep it moving and frequently turning so as not to suck the heat out on the cold anvil (and wear an apron as sparks and molten metal spray..Don't forget the leather boots...). Once the white heat is gone you can replace it in the fire and take another soaking heat and repeat so long as you have prepared the 'scarfs' properly by upsetting the ends first to allow the extra metal to allow for propper size when forged. Now that's welding!
__________________
ConradG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2010, 06:37   #279
Registered User
 
anjou's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Malvernshire, on the sunny side of the hill.
Boat: 50' steel canal and river cruiser
Posts: 1,905
The guys who made Samurai swords were genei. They kept beating out and folding layer upon layer to combine the maliable back of the sword with the hard edge to achieve a hard sharpness with flexibility
__________________
www.amy-artimis.blogspot.com
anjou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2010, 06:48   #280
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,572
Images: 240
I donít think Iíll be doing any forge welding; but thanks for the excellent tutorial Conrad.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2010, 07:02   #281
Senior Cruiser
 
osirissail's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: A real life Zombie from FL
Boat: Gulfstar 53 - Osiris
Posts: 5,416
Images: 2
Gee, ever since that guy mention "explosive welding" this thread has exploded - 3 plus pages in two days or less. . .
- - Anyway, don't be so hard on the saltymonkey. If you are honest and remember back to when you and even me first graduated from sailing school or from self-taught sailing we were absolute experts on everything "sailing." No doubt about it. After maybe a decade or two of real time out there with Mother Nature showing us how much we do not know there comes a maturity to the subject area.
- - But it is really only human nature - ask any parent of a teenager - the teenager absolutely knows how to solve all the worlds problems, absolutely. Maybe that is why we send the off to war while the older and wiser stay behind.
- - It is refreshing to see that even old folks can be re-invigorated with the spirit of youthful absoluteness.
__________________
osirissail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2010, 07:09   #282
Registered User
 
anjou's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Malvernshire, on the sunny side of the hill.
Boat: 50' steel canal and river cruiser
Posts: 1,905
Thats one way of explaining it. Wisdom and experience is the only compensation for age.


Quote:
Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
Gee, ever since that guy mention "explosive welding" this thread has exploded - 3 plus pages in two days or less. . .
- - Anyway, don't be so hard on the saltymonkey. If you are honest and remember back to when you and even me first graduated from sailing school or from self-taught sailing we were absolute experts on everything "sailing." No doubt about it. After maybe a decade or two of real time out there with Mother Nature showing us how much we do not know there comes a maturity to the subject area.
- - But it is really only human nature - ask any parent of a teenager - the teenager absolutely knows how to solve all the worlds problems, absolutely. Maybe that is why we send the off to war while the older and wiser stay behind.
- - It is refreshing to see that even old folks can be re-invigorated with the spirit of youthful absoluteness.
__________________
www.amy-artimis.blogspot.com
anjou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2010, 09:16   #283
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
Quote:
Originally Posted by anjou View Post
Thats one way of explaining it. Wisdom and experience is the only compensation for age.
...or it's in your way. If you loose "beginners mind", your brain will lock and be bitter at life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anjou View Post
Nova Scotia tourist information used to have a book of dreams. Stuff to do on vacation. It was called 'Doers and Dreamers'
Which one are you?
I'm a "Droer"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boracay View Post
It's not just action that is required.

Perseverance, resources (and resourcefulness), realism and the ability to learn - these are not part of dreaming.
No, they are simply power tools. And dreaming is the only power source that can feed them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
- After maybe a decade or two of real time out there with Mother Nature showing us how much we do not know there comes a maturity to the subject area.
- - But it is really only human nature - ask any parent of a teenager - the teenager absolutely knows how to solve all the worlds problems, absolutely. Maybe that is why we send the off to war while the older and wiser stay behind.
- - It is refreshing to see that even old folks can be re-invigorated with the spirit of youthful absoluteness.
Expert, Wise, Time, Maturity...all human projections on the world. They are not things. Show me a "Maturity" in nature? I have no use for your bitter titles and qualitative measurements. You've only failed because you "think" you failed. A 30k lb weld can be just as good as a 70k lb weld for your needs. 90% of your "expert", "mature" experience in welding will hardly ever be used. And if needed, it will be experimented and used effectively. Someone who has sailed 10,000 miles can be more of an "expert" than someone who has sailed 100,000. In a survival situation, the thin little school girl lives while the beefy survival expert dies. Projections and measurements mean absolutely nothing. Attitude is everything.

I say unto you, it's not what you don't know that's important, it's what you already know that you should recognize, value and be thankful for.

Thank God, I am not an "expert". Let's hope I never attain that title.

You people are way to western.
__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2010, 14:14   #284
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 84
I bought the hull, had to put the lead in the keels, the inside seams were welded, which is normal when you pull one together, the deck mostly all welded on top, which is all it needs. The stainless detailing except for most of the stanchions and rails was cut and tacked in place, so the fitting is really were I saved time, it was especially nice since it gave me something to go on as I didn't really have the boat building experience to know where I should put everything, I also had three or four other brent boats in town and a few more out of town to have a look at and copy things of off, and Brent would drop by every few weeks and tell me to do this or that, he's really helpful, answers all my stupid questions, I had him work for me one day to finish up fitting the details on. I had to build the rigging, deck hardware, windvane, winch, stuff like that too.
My father has a farm, theres a shop with welding equipment although I used an AC buzz box that my friends dad gave me to do most of the welding rather than pull the large DC welder over to the shop were the boat was. DC would have been nice the shed I was in leaked like a sieve and I was always getting little jolts if I happened to be sitting on a piece of stainless trim when changing the rod. The shed was nice for the wind protection and the shade cause it can get pretty hot in a large metal box in the sun. I used a MIG welder (with gas) for the outside of the hull seams as they were long welds and the inside weld had filled them pretty well and so didn't need as much penetration, it was more just filling the gap, and a lot of grinding, a lot, probably much less if I were to do it again now that my welding is a little more skillful. I tried stainless welding with the wirefeed machine but found that it spattered way too much than was economical, stick was way better, and the wirefeed just was such a pain in the ass to haul around all over the boat with the power cord, the gas line, the ground and I was constantly changing rather expensive little pieces of copper consumables. So I wouldn't say I saved time by the welding but certainly having everything in place saved tons as usually that ends up being more than half of the work. Brent likes to make boats to this level of completion and let the owners finish them up and he's really good at it, he charges 30 bucks an hour plus food and transport which is cheaper than any welder or shipwright I know of and he's fast, really fast. It's a good way to go let's you do the practice welds on less important areas and by the end of it your welding should be alright.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bangkaboat View Post
I think that you'd give yourself credit for more than a couple of weekends of welding, Haidan. Now, as I recall, you bought your hull "with all steel detailing completed". That must have saved a lot of welding time.
Your father has a fab. shop, doesn't he, Haidan?.
__________________
haidan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2010, 16:28   #285
Registered User
 
bangkaboat's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sihanoukville, Cambodia
Boat: looking
Posts: 593
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by haidan View Post
I bought the hull, had to put the lead in the keels, the inside seams were welded, which is normal when you pull one together, the deck mostly all welded on top, which is all it needs. The stainless detailing except for most of the stanchions and rails was cut and tacked in place, so the fitting is really were I saved time, it was especially nice since it gave me something to go on as I didn't really have the boat building experience to know where I should put everything, I also had three or four other brent boats in town and a few more out of town to have a look at and copy things of off, and Brent would drop by every few weeks and tell me to do this or that, he's really helpful, answers all my stupid questions, I had him work for me one day to finish up fitting the details on. I had to build the rigging, deck hardware, windvane, winch, stuff like that too.
My father has a farm, theres a shop with welding equipment although I used an AC buzz box that my friends dad gave me to do most of the welding rather than pull the large DC welder over to the shop were the boat was. DC would have been nice the shed I was in leaked like a sieve and I was always getting little jolts if I happened to be sitting on a piece of stainless trim when changing the rod. The shed was nice for the wind protection and the shade cause it can get pretty hot in a large metal box in the sun. I used a MIG welder (with gas) for the outside of the hull seams as they were long welds and the inside weld had filled them pretty well and so didn't need as much penetration, it was more just filling the gap, and a lot of grinding, a lot, probably much less if I were to do it again now that my welding is a little more skillful. I tried stainless welding with the wirefeed machine but found that it spattered way too much than was economical, stick was way better, and the wirefeed just was such a pain in the ass to haul around all over the boat with the power cord, the gas line, the ground and I was constantly changing rather expensive little pieces of copper consumables. So I wouldn't say I saved time by the welding but certainly having everything in place saved tons as usually that ends up being more than half of the work. Brent likes to make boats to this level of completion and let the owners finish them up and he's really good at it, he charges 30 bucks an hour plus food and transport which is cheaper than any welder or shipwright I know of and he's fast, really fast. It's a good way to go let's you do the practice welds on less important areas and by the end of it your welding should be alright.
So, looking back, if you did not have a partially built boat, Brent on site, & other boats in the immediate area, would you have been capable of doing it on your own? $30/hr. is a significant wage, not even counting the perks. how did you calculate your displacement & ballast requirements? How many firring tabs are you up to(lol)? Spatter can be a real pita when welding stainless and proper polishing is crucial. Sorry to read of your challenges with the wire. Like all welding, it is just practice, practice, practice to address most of these challenges.
Best of luck
__________________

__________________
bangkaboat is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Opinions: Steel Boats ? Zach Monohull Sailboats 24 14-07-2010 15:36
Welding Stainless Through-Hulls to a Steel Hull Boracay Construction, Maintenance & Refit 30 20-06-2010 01:06
Questions About Steel Boats ssullivan Construction, Maintenance & Refit 118 27-10-2007 09:25
steel power boats. irwinsailor Construction, Maintenance & Refit 18 19-09-2005 08:39



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:36.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.