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Old 14-11-2008, 15:03   #16
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Originally Posted by witchcraft View Post
I love my steel boat...
Don't we all ? But we mustn't let that get in the way of giving balanced advice should we ?

A steel sail boat that is 50-60% heavier than a moderate displacement fibreglass boat of the same size, and which is gaff rigged and long keeled, such as Colvin's Saugeen Witch design, is never going to make anything like the passage times of more modern lined, fin keeled, moderate displacement composite construction sail boats, and that especially so in the light and to windward.

That is not to denigrate the boat itself, it depends on what one wants from it - no boat is the perfect solution. But if one wants at least moderately fast passage making ability, so not a "slug" as the original poster asked, then a steel sail boat much smaller than 40 foot is not the answer. Indeed, one will be lucky to get one even in the 40-45 foot range that will give such performance as even in the larger boat sizes the scantlings of steel sail boats are often over designed to no useful purpose.

The above comments from an owner of a steel sail boat, so likely also has a kinder view of steel than is good for him .
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Old 14-11-2008, 15:14   #17
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I would have to disagree with this. My first boat was a 32' steel yawl. Amazing boat. She could make hull speed in 10-15kt winds under jib and mizzen alone.
Whoops, looks like I am stirring up a hornets nest of small steel boat owners who love their boats .

So I will bow out of this now except to stand by the impossibility of building a servicable steel sail boat much under 40 foot that comes near to matching the displacement of a similarly sized composite one. Displacement kills speed - you will find no reputable designer who will disagree with that.
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Old 14-11-2008, 17:20   #18
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...why is speed your priority ?....
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Old 15-11-2008, 15:30   #19
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I would have to disagree with this. My first boat was a 32' steel yawl. Amazing boat. She could make hull speed in 10-15kt winds under jib and mizzen alone.

Syd
That's an awful lot of speed. Can you describe the conditions, and the boat?

Speed is important to get away from weather. I averaged 4 knots over approximently 4k miles. Not to mention get to your destination sooner, so you can spend more time there. I was left out in bad weather when boats averaging 6 knots were comfy in an anchorage already
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Old 21-11-2008, 17:12   #20
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I have an under 40' steel boat. She is no slug. You just have to have high enough SA/D ratio--and for that you need enough stability which translates into draft.

Admittedly, most under 40' steel sailboats are slugs because they are, in fact, undercanvassed. But there are no laws of physics that says heavy boats must be slow. You just need enough SA/D to drive them.

One of the benefits of a custom build is that you can get what you what.
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Old 21-11-2008, 17:16   #21
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Displacement kills speed - you will find no reputable designer who will disagree with that.
N.A. David Gerr spends an entire chapter in one of his books putting a stake in the heart of this myth.

Displacement does not kill speed. Low SA/D does, per David Gerr, N.A.

I know a Caliber 40 is no race boat, but she is a genuine cruiser, like my 36er'. I spotted her 1/4 mile in a 6 knot breeze and in 4 miles I passed on the inside, me pointing higher and faster.

Plastic boats hate my boat.
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Old 21-11-2008, 17:26   #22
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N.A. David Gerr spends an entire chapter in one of his books putting a stake in the heart of this myth.

Displacement does not kill speed. Low SA/D does.
Oh, I stand corrected . Am looking forward to seeing the new wave of open class racing sailboats built of steel looking for line honours because displacement does not kill speed .
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Old 21-11-2008, 17:45   #23
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Check out this. I got alot of good info when I had mine.
Welcome to the Metal Boat Society
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Old 21-11-2008, 18:04   #24
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This probably isn't at all what you're looking for but it's interesting to look at nonetheless:

Designers and builder's of fine metal boats >> Waterline Yachts

Only reason I became aware of them is because I jealously ogle Isolabella every time I sail in and out of the slips. It's absolutely beautiful.

They make a great steel 43-footer, but it's kind of an odd niche boat. It comes with a built in compressor for SCUBA, and, an even bigger surprise, an electric piano that slides out of the cabinetry.
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Old 21-11-2008, 18:28   #25
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Check out this. I got alot of good info when I had mine.
Welcome to the Metal Boat Society
Is it worth joining the Metal Boat Society if you have a metal boat?
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Old 24-11-2008, 12:53   #26
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Oh, I stand corrected . Am looking forward to seeing the new wave of open class racing sailboats built of steel looking for line honours because displacement does not kill speed .
I never said steel makes for good racing boats. What I said is that in a cruising context steel need not be meaningful slower than the next cruiser. You seem to need to put words in my mouth because your statement that all sub-40' steel boats are slugs was flat-out wrong.

When you are under 40', the additional displacement attributable to anchor gear, food, water, fuel, gear, etc., etc, can drive the SA/D ratio down dramatically, and raise the center of gravity dangerously.

But if boat started out with a healthy displacement and adequate SA/D, then the addition of this displacement for cruising stores and equipment has a less adverse impact on both SA/D and center of gravity than in the case of the lightweight boat. Meaning that the fully loaded heavy sub-40' cruiser will in all likelihood be not only faster but safer. Further, the heavy displacement boat usually has more interior storage than the lightweight boat, so it's easier to store the additional displacement down low where it is less likely to impact stability, unlike the case of the canoe bodied lightweight.

As a consequence, fully loading a lightweight sub-40' for cruising almost always negatively impacts sailing and safety performance more than in the case of a heavy displacement sub-40'.

The key is to make sure the heavy boat has adequate SA/D, which frequently is NOT the case. Dave Gerr talks about this.

Lightweight is important in the racing context for two reasons. First, the boat will accelerate faster. Second, lightweight boats can exceed hull speed and plane or surf down waves much easier than heavy boats. Neither of these perfomance attributes is important in the cruising context. In the cruising context for a boat under 40', load carrying, room for storage, and retaining safe stability after being fully loaded, are critically important, and each is aided by reasonably heavy displacement. Each is compromised by a lightweight canoe body.
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Old 24-11-2008, 12:55   #27
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Is it worth joining the Metal Boat Society if you have a metal boat?
I was a member for a while. It seems oriented towards boat builders and such. I'm a sailor, not a builder.
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Old 24-11-2008, 13:59   #28
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I believe Adventure Cat on S.F. Bay is a steel cat. She is bare, but screams along. Lat38's cat is steel also I believe.
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Old 24-11-2008, 15:01   #29
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The more I read and the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a steel hull. I would like to hear opinions around this subject.

I want something under 40' that is seakind and and seaworthy but not a slug. Does anyone have a short list?
I'm rather fond of Dudley Dix's designs.

I especially like his radius chine pilothouse boats. Here is a link to a 38 footer
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Old 24-11-2008, 15:21   #30
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I'm rather fond of Dudley Dix's designs.

I especially like his radius chine pilothouse boats. Here is a link to a 38 footer
"Sail Area/Displ 14.9"

That boat is an example of what I mean by inadequate SA/D ratio. I could never live with 14.9.

B/D is .29. Sweet motion, but that explains why SA/D ratio is only 14.9.

Give her a tad more ballast, put the ballast deeper, and then make the rig bigger. Of course, then you would have something similar to my boat.

. . .

"Sail Area/Wetted Surface 1.85" IIRC, the Pardeys recommend something close to 2. OTOH, I think they use all sail area and not just 100% triangle. Been awhile since I read their stuff.
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