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Old 04-04-2013, 10:32   #31
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Re: Staysail definition?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldFrog75 View Post
Many thanks to all of you who have taken the time to respond to my original post.

As I read (and re-read) all the posts it seems that although some use the term 'staysail' to refer to a cutter specifically, most use it to refer to the inner foresail on any boat rigged with multiple forestays.

I guess that means when sitting around at the end of the day and I hear someone talk about their 'staysail', the only way to know for sure will be to ask if they are talking about a cutter or a sloop rigged with multiple forestays. In some circles that will no doubt lead to a debate about what the definition of a cutter is.
The argument about the difference between a cutter and staysail rigged sloop is nothing compared to the argument about ketch vs. Yawl.
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Old 04-04-2013, 11:02   #32
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Re: Staysail definition?

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
The argument about the difference between a cutter and staysail rigged sloop is nothing compared to the argument about ketch vs. Yawl.
You've got THAT right!
For a number of years I enjoyed restoring and sailing a Herreschoff Rozinante, which was officially classified as a ketch-rigged Yawl!

The term "yawl" was originally applied to a specific type of hull design, not a rig. So, the Rozinante was a yawl, but she was also a ketch!
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Old 04-04-2013, 11:13   #33
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Re: Staysail definition?

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Originally Posted by OldFrog75 View Post
So a sloop with multiple forestays is not a cutter? And if the second sail in the foretriangle is not a staysail, what is it called?
a cutter is defined by the position of the mast fore and aft in relation to the CE and the sail area, as well as having the staysail. The mast being further aft on a cutter than a sloop. That's what I remember anyway.
Not that all this matters much in our discussions....
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Old 04-04-2013, 13:00   #34
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Re: Staysail definition?

I thought it might be interesting to hear from Ted Brewer on the matter.

Copied (stolen) from

Good Old Boat - The fore-and-aft rig article

Quote:
Sloops and cutters

The sloop rig and the cutter are almost indistinguishable today. If the boat sets only a single headsail, she is a sloop, of course.
Blue Jeans, a 46-foot cutter without a bowsprit

With or without a bowsprit, if the mast is set well aft, abaft 40 percent of the waterline length, and the boat carries two or more headsails, she is a cutter. Confusion arises when a boat has her mast located forward but sets several headsails. Many will call her a cutter but she is, in reality, a double-headsail sloop. Even with a short bowsprit she'll be a sloop unless the foretriangle is larger than the mainsail. The sloop and cutter are the most efficient of all rigs. Indeed, a sloop with a self-tending jib would be as easy to handle as a catboat and a better all-round performer. The single-headsail sloop usually has a slight edge over the double-headsail rigs, as the staysail is not an easy sail to trim for maximum performance. Properly set up, either rig is simple to handle, and with modern (and very expensive) gear they are suited to cruising yachts up to 50 feet or more.
An important point with cutters and most double-headsail rigs is that running backstays are required to properly tension the staysail stay. Often, you'll find an intermediate shroud fitted, running from the point where the staysail stay intersects the mast to a chainplatejust abaft the aft lower shroud.
Kaiulani, a 38-foot cutter

The angle this shroud presents with the mast is far too small to tension the staysail stay, so all it really does is add undesirable mast compression. On many designs I have fitted a heavy tackle to the lower end of the intermediate shroud so it can be left set up as an intermediate in light air and, when it breezes up, brought aft as a runner, properly tensioning the staysail stay and reducing mast panting at the same time. Don't cross an ocean without one! It should be noted that the most efficient setup for a given sail area is a sloop with a large mainsail and a non-overlapping jib. The big 150-percent masthead genoa jib beloved of modern racers only pays off under handicap rules that do not penalize the extra area of the overlap. In class racing where every square foot of sail area is counted, such as the 5.5-Meter class, the rigs quickly settle down to using the largest permissible main and the smallest jib to make up the allowed area. Such a rig can make good sense for the coastal cruiser also, as it simplifies handling. The main can be quickly reefed when it blows, eliminating the need for a headsail change. Tacking with the smaller jib is much easier on a husband/wife crew than handling a whopping big genoa. Such rigs were once common but are now out of style in this era of masthead sloops.
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Old 04-04-2013, 13:24   #35
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Re: Staysail definition?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
I thought it might be interesting to hear from Ted Brewer on the matter.

Copied (stolen) from

Good Old Boat - The fore-and-aft rig article
And Ted Brewer of-course confirms my statements about the running backstays and spends a lot of text on their importance and that the intermediate shrouds will NOT do.

Let's see if he gets attacked over it as much as I do
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Old 04-04-2013, 15:41   #36
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Re: Staysail definition?

I really love this thread! I own a van de stadt 34 with a bowsprit and live in continuous uncertainty if it is a cutter or a sloop with a bowsprit. :-)

It has running backstays at the hight of the cutter stay, the cutter stay runs to the bow. On the bowsprit there is a big genua to the masthead. The distance between both parallel forestays is about 3ft and the staysail is self tacking (if I remove the baby stay).
I have no information on the position of the mast compared to other vd stadts 34.
Any opinions?
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Old 04-04-2013, 16:46   #37
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Re: Staysail definition?



Another CUTTER!!
The CG Cutter Harriet Lane.
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Old 04-04-2013, 17:43   #38
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Re: Staysail definition?

Jedi, re your last post, I hope that wasn't intended to respond to my comment about the jumper stay option. If so, you may have been confused by that. Jumper stays are not intermediate shrouds, which have chainplates as Brewer points out. Jumpers are rigged with forward angled jumper struts (not spreaders per se) and keep the mast in column to counter the jibstay forces (what we are saying the staysail is attached to). If you google image "jumper stays" the first couple images show how this works. This config was more traditional with fractional rigs (which is somewhat what a cutter is when you are not flying the foremost sail) but shows up in cutter rigs was well, to eliminate the runners. You're correct that Brewer preferred runners in his designs. They are very sturdy rigs.
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Old 04-04-2013, 21:03   #39
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Re: Staysail definition?

I know what jumper stays are.. I have one myself. But those do not replace running backstays: they replace forestays.

Show me a picture of a cutter without running backstays that has jumper stays?

cheers,
Nick.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bauer965 View Post
Jedi, re your last post, I hope that wasn't intended to respond to my comment about the jumper stay option. If so, you may have been confused by that. Jumper stays are not intermediate shrouds, which have chainplates as Brewer points out. Jumpers are rigged with forward angled jumper struts (not spreaders per se) and keep the mast in column to counter the jibstay forces (what we are saying the staysail is attached to). If you google image "jumper stays" the first couple images show how this works. This config was more traditional with fractional rigs (which is somewhat what a cutter is when you are not flying the foremost sail) but shows up in cutter rigs was well, to eliminate the runners. You're correct that Brewer preferred runners in his designs. They are very sturdy rigs.
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Old 04-04-2013, 21:32   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
I know what jumper stays are.. I have one myself. But those do not replace running backstays: they replace forestays.

Show me a picture of a cutter without running backstays that has jumper stays?

cheers,
Nick.
ive seen twin spreader masthead rigs with forward raked jumpers. it took me a while to realise they where there to eliminate the need to have runners for the inner stay. never saw it back in nz on a mashead rig.
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Old 05-04-2013, 05:11   #41
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Re: Staysail definition?

Jedi, you crack me up. I think I still have you confused. You could have been a little insightful, and assuming I was talking from experience, taken a look at the boat under my name (Tayana Mariner 36) as an example of a cutter with forward raked jumper stays.
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Old 05-04-2013, 06:39   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bauer965 View Post
Jedi, you crack me up. I think I still have you confused. You could have been a little insightful, and assuming I was talking from experience, taken a look at the boat under my name (Tayana Mariner 36) as an example of a cutter with forward raked jumper stays.
Ah, that's why you kept it a secret No, I never noticed this before and have no problem admitting that towards traditional designs I know less and less but I had not expected a jumper stay here. Tell me more about it, how does the sailplan work? Is the inner stay used for a storm jib or do they switch to a trysail?
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Old 05-04-2013, 07:49   #43
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Re: Staysail definition?

The sail plan is shown here: Tayana Mariner 36 - Brochure albeit not the best quality image. I don't use the jib boom as it may show.
Because I don't have roller-reefing, I have options. This is a blessing and a curse.
If I am feeling lazy, I'll put a 130% genoa on the forestay and call it good. Tacking this thru the slot of the forestay and jibstay is not as difficult as some folks say. You just back it, and then whoosh, it goes thru. In this config, the boat looks like a sloop.
If I'm not feeling lazy, I'll use the "cutter plan" and rig a yankee and jib (staysail). As designed, the CE of these sails are balanced well with the mainsail CE, and all is quite well up to about surprisingly 20-22 knots, depending on what you call fun. My first reduction in sail area comes with striking the yankee, and then a single reef in the main. This results in a wonderfully balanced rig in a fresh breeze, and from a distance would look like a fractionally rigged sloop (albeit without the tune-ability since the masthead is supported by fixed forestay/backstay).
After a 2nd reef in the main is still to much sail, the jib (staysail) can be struck and a storm sail put in its place. Ideally, this would be accompanied by a 3rd reef in the main, or a trysail, neither of which I have/need at this point.
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Old 05-04-2013, 08:14   #44
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Re: Staysail definition?

I have seen lots of rigs with forward jumper stays. Our schooner has two sets of running back stays to support the stays'l and main stays'l
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Old 05-04-2013, 08:23   #45
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Re: Staysail definition?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
The argument about the difference between a cutter and staysail rigged sloop is nothing compared to the argument about ketch vs. Yawl.
Really? I've always considered it fairly straightforward: if the mizzen mast is abaft the rudder post, it's a yawl.
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