Staysail Definition?

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

And the authority upon which you base your humble opinion is...?

Tradition? Thou sailing with one mast it doesn't really matter..

[svmariane]

Ayah....

Precisely to avoid this debate we define our home as a
Cutter-Rigged Sloop

For us, our " stay'sl "gets hanked on an inner stay that's attached near the upper (of two) spreader sets and on the deck about 1 & 1/2 meters behind the roller-reef genoa. Running backstays to keep me busy when tacking...

And hoping not to bore you (too much) with another story....

We shreaded our much-repaired and dbl-reefed main when winds kicked up over 35 knots. Hoisted the storm trysail, furled the genoa and hanked on the stay'sl. When the winds climbed into the forties we hanked on the storm stay'sl. During that fun task one wave doused the foredeck and I discovered that my auto-inflate PFD worked as advertised.

As gusts started hitting the mid-fifties the rolled-up genoa broke its top mounting. My bad - I'd wanted to install a larger shackle but didn't "get around to it". The halyard held her until later - much later - I could climb up for repairs.

With sustained winds in the high fifties, gusting low to mid sixties, and seas we estimated at approx 12 meters (vs our 14 1/2 meter boat) we hove to under storm try'sl and storm stay'sl. And thus rigged we sat out the next forty hours. Still, 'twas rough enough to snap the leeward mid-height shroud just above the turnbuckle. (Temp repairs with a short piece of SS 5/8 cable and cable clamps. No probs with the PFD this time: reloaded but set for manual activation.)

In retrospect, I really should have deployed the drogue and run under bare poles.

And yes, we did have daily wxr updates before, during, and after the storm. But I trusted the chap who provided them - until the morning he told me to break out the heavy weather sails 'cause it's getting ready to blow and there's nowhere to run in any direction. Thanks. Lesson learned.

We ended up sailing the final 500-odd miles, far off the original course, using only storm trysail and regular stay'sl. Slow it was, but hey! Kind of comforting, knowing we were storm-rigged 24/7 I thanked the gods - and my sensible catering wife - that we didn't run out of beer! New Zealand to Tonga - 2011.

Follow up: Amidst the many repairs and upgrades I've done while here in American Samoa , the first three were: New sails; new standing rigging; software to capture wxr fax via SSB. (Free s/w from a great guy and programmer aboard the sv Questor: DJM Questor Software - Club Cruceros de La Paz )

[s/v Jedi]

When the innerstay is very close to the forestay it is called a Solent stay. Many big Oysters have one.

When a boat only has one set of spreaders, then the cutter stay will be above the spreaders at approximately the position where the 2nd set of spreaders would be. The give-away is that at that position you also find the two running backstays attached, to counter the forces from the cutter stay.

When the two runners are missing, it is a sloop.

[markpierce]

Staysail schooners have a staysail between the masts.

Consider my sails, which are small, to be "staysails." They can add a half-knot or so of speed.

[bauer965]

You guys crack me up. Everyone wants to black/white answer to this, that can be applied to every boat out there. There is no formula.
Chapman is correct in defining a cutter. What makes a cutter a cutter is the geometry of the overall rig relative to the hull. A simple statement like, "If you have X, then it's a cutter" doesn't apply.
Most all previously stated definition of a staysail on this post are also correct, especailly the very broad definition provided by Bash. That is the reason why everyone and their brother will say they fly staysails, and as shown by the ship diagram in on the wikipedia link provided earlier, a pletora of sails are identified as a staysail.
And in the traditional sense, Jim Cate is also correct. On a cutter, the inner headsail is the jib, and the outer is a foresail. That is the way Brian Toss defines them as well. (If you want to convolute this more, the foresail can be either a genoa or a yankee, depending on your mood that day (ahh, the beauty of hank-on sails)).
Jedi, FYI, your statement "when two runners are missing, it's a sloop" is an example of where formula statements are a dead giveway to being inaccurate. There are other methods to counter-act the jibstay forces on a cutter, for example, forward-angled jumper stays similar to some fractional rigs.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

Tradition? Thou sailing with one mast it doesn't really matter..

Well if you really want to get traditional then

CUTTER. A small single-masted, sharp-built broad vessel, commonly navigated in the English Channel, furnished with a straight running bowsprit, occasionally run in horizontally on the deck; except for which, and the largeness of the sails, they are rigged much like sloops. Either clincher or carvel-built, no jib-stay, the jib hoisting and hanging by the halliards alone. She carries a fore-and-aft main-sail, gaff-topsail, stay-foresail, and jib. The name is derived from their fast sailing. The cutter (as H.M.S. Dwarf) has been made to set every sail, even royal studding-sails, sky-scrapers, moon-rakers, star-gazers, water and below-water sails, that could be set by any vessel on one mast. One of the largest which has answered effectually, was the Viper, of 460 tons and 28 guns; this vessel was very useful during the American war, particularly by getting into Gibraltar at a critical period of the siege.

But as the English language and sailing technology have evolved a bit in the last 100-200 years, so the definition of cutter and staysail have become commonly accepted as stated in a couple of previous posts.

For anyone that sails a cutter that can set studding sails then I say let the older definitions prevail.

[Greg4cocokai]

As our boat is a stays'l schooner, we have three headstays forward of our formast. #1 Genoa (roller furling), #2 Jib (roller furling) and our hank on stays'l. The sails between the formast and mainmast is a roller furled Main stays'l and also the fisherman. When the wind gets up over 40 the stays'l and main stays'l keep us very confortable.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by bauer965

Jedi, FYI, your statement "when two runners are missing, it's a sloop" is an example of where formula statements are a dead giveway to being inaccurate. There are other methods to counter-act the jibstay forces on a cutter, for example, forward-angled jumper stays similar to some fractional rigs.

Yes, there are exceptions to everything anybody writes, unless one switches to such general terms that it isn't helpful anymore.

[nitpik]

Wouldn't it be simpler if you all sailed proper yachts, with two masts?
On a schooner, the sail out front is a Yankee, followed by the Stays'l., then the Fores'l (ForeMainSail), and then the Mainsail.
Personally, I don't much care what ya' calls it, on your own boat, as long as everyone agrees, and there is no confusion amongst the crew that might lead to an unsafe situation.

I am curious 'though ..... is it only called a Yankee in the States? Wot would they call it in Oz?

[OldFrog75]

Many thanks to all of you who have taken the time to respond to my original post.

As I read (and re-read) all the posts it seems that although some use the term 'staysail' to refer to a cutter specifically, most use it to refer to the inner foresail on any boat rigged with multiple forestays.

I guess that means when sitting around at the end of the day and I hear someone talk about their 'staysail', the only way to know for sure will be to ask if they are talking about a cutter or a sloop rigged with multiple forestays. In some circles that will no doubt lead to a debate about what the definition of a cutter is.

[zeehag]

there are fore staysails , mizzen staysails .... and schooners have staysails, so whenye speak of a staysail you must precede staysail with the locale to which it is relevant. cutter sail is not correct, but forestaysail is correct.

[Suijin]

In a solent rig, as a form of double headsail sloop (in it's literal meaning), the forestays are very close together because both sails are not intended to be flown at the same time. The inner jib is for windward work while the bigger outer genoa is for sailing off the wind.

I think people are getting tangled up in various colloquialisms with respect to the word "staysail". It means different things to different people depending on what sort of rig they have or are familiar with. Literally it is any fore and aft sail with the luff attached to a stay, be it hanked on, roller furled, or whatever. In that sense every jib is a staysail of one sort or another.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by OldFrog75

I guess that means when sitting around at the end of the day and I hear someone talk about their 'staysail', the only way to know for sure will be to ask if they are talking about a cutter or a sloop rigged with multiple forestays. In some circles that will no doubt lead to a debate about what the definition of a cutter is.

Wrong. Staysails are rigged on schooners, ketches, brigantines, and tall ships as well.

Don't attempt to oversimplify rigging; its complexity is what makes it interesting.

Confusion about the term "cutter" has resulted from evolution of the term itself. 100 years ago, any boat with a rig we today call a cutter rig was called a sloop. Distinguishing between the two is a fairly modern phenomenon. I have a 1936 first edition of Howard Chapelle's American Sailing Craft aboard, and it only uses the word "cutter" once in the whole book: "The difference between the rigs of the cutter and 'sloop boat' lies in the spars, the bowsprit of the sloop being fixed instead of running, and the mast being farther forward that the cutter's."

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by nitpik

Wouldn't it be simpler if you all sailed proper yachts, with two masts?
On a schooner, the sail out front is a Yankee, followed by the Stays'l., then the Fores'l (ForeMainSail), and then the Mainsail.
Personally, I don't much care what ya' calls it, on your own boat, as long as everyone agrees, and there is no confusion amongst the crew that might lead to an unsafe situation.

I am curious 'though ..... is it only called a Yankee in the States? Wot would they call it in Oz?

No

The two foresails are the jib (forward) and the staysail (inner).

Here it is: the combination is sometimes called the "Yankee pair". This is because the schooners were developed for fishing the Grand Banks and thus it was the Yankees doing this according to sailors elsewhere. (Many of these were Dutch heritage who called it a Schoener, hence in English the Schooner which is the phonetic spelling.)

Yankee comes from the Dutch name "Jan Kees". This goes back to the New Netherland times when many people were named Jan Kees. With the schooner Dutch, they were quick to bring in the Yankee name for the sails.

Here's another thing: In many countries, the jib is the sail that attaches to the bow. In case of a cutter, an extra sail was put in front of that on a bowsprit and this was called a "Kluiver" by the Dutch. Many languages took over that word.

In English not so, they called the jib that is attached to the forestay the "topmast jib" or a variation of that but the "top-mast" is about the stay that goes to the upper-most section of the mast (they came in three parts in those days). In front of it were sails like outer-jibs, flying jibs etc.

This is why there is always much confusion about the names: they are different as you go around the world.

[nitpik]

Thanks Jedi - I get the connection. I knew a sailor/artist whose Canadian name was John Kees, but he was a Dutchman, and he signed his paintings with his proper name, "Jan Kees", which he pronounced "YahnKee"

(would still like to know what they call that sail in Oz - they do a lot of strange things down there!)