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sailorboy1 · 01-01-2009, 15:51

So many boats, so many "numbers". Not counting extremes and given that light air is more common than heavy air; what is the group preference between the boat design that is faster with a rocker ride (but probably only a lot of difference at seas beyound full reefing points), or the boat with "comfort" soft movement but slower (all the time but still going to be rough beyound the same fully reefed point)? In this I am asking about cruising boats overall and not race designs.

Sandero · 01-01-2009, 16:11

Personally I think comfort trumps speed, but you need to factor in safety which means if you are in bad weather you want to be able to sail thru it and not be stuck in it any longer than you have to.

Comfort in a seaway is also related to the size and period of the waves as it relates to the hull form and length... there is no best size of shape since the sea are very variable.

Flat seas fast is comfortable, ain't it?

Dave the Canuck · 01-01-2009, 16:16

I was going to say comfort over speed but thought further. (Hey, it's a new year). The correct answer for anyone will be dictated by crew, admiral's disposition and myriad other factors. My perfect boat is comfortable but also quick enough to get into/out of situations where speed is important. 3 days in the soup is preferable to 6 days. However, 4 relativily comfortable days might be better than 3 b*#ls to the wall, living on the edge while staring death in the eye days. I'll be surprised if there is a straightforward answer to this question.

Tempest245 · 01-01-2009, 17:15

Dave is probably quite correct, I'm sure the question generates lots of debate.
And I don't think there is a wrong or right answer.

So I think it all comes down to what your priorities are, your sailing style, what comforts you want aboard, where you sail and what the prevailing conditions are.
What your pocketbook allows.

If making regular crossing to Bermuda from the mainland ,for instance, many people might choose a boat that will get them there in 4 days as opposed to 6. This allows you to pick a reasonble weather window and get to your destination quickly. The longer you are out there the more likely you are to encounter some dramatic shifts.
If you're making passages of longer duration, you might choose a heavier displacement vessel that might be a little stiffer in a blow.

I don't have the extensive cruising experience many here have; but I had always figured that sooner or later I will be caught out in a good blow, and I wanted a boat that would hold up to it fairly well. I still like to sail as fast as I can and when the winds are too light on a trip, I have no problem giving them an little engine assist.

Unless of course, I'm catching fish!...

I'm sure there are many good arguments for lighter and faster.

Tempest..

Sandero · 01-01-2009, 17:23

I assume that the question is trying to compare boats of equal LWL but different displacements, hull shape, keel, rig and canvas. The theoretical speed of the two is the same. The heavy full keel is slow to turn and might not be as tender and pound whatever. These factors will make the boats feel different in a seaway and ultimately make one faster and the other slower and there is probably a happy medium - the racer-cruiser.

sailorboy1 · 01-01-2009, 17:47

Of course we (I) want it all, speed and comfort. Rememeber I said this was between crusier boats so this is the reference of thinking. One of the things I'm trying to figure out is the relative difference in the sailing feel between the 2 camps. I kind of like the idea of speed over just comfort, as long as this doesn't result in discomfort overall. Guess in a way you could look at it as the change from the full keel cruiser to the modified fin "performance" cruiser more common today that kind of says we prefer the speed end of the scale. So putting aside all the theory, what is the current thinking of the readers here as to what they would prefer in their boats: more speed or more comfort?

Sandero · 01-01-2009, 18:09

This is a hard question to answer for my boat. I can't imagione how to make her more comfortable. What would / could I change? I can imagine her moving faster, but would that motion be less comfortable? Hard to imagine? Would I strip her out to go faster? NO NO NO.

bob perry · 01-01-2009, 19:04

Do not assume that a boat with a full keel will be a stiff boat. Ask any INGRID owner.
A "full keel" puts a lot of volume on the wrong side of the CG when the boat heels. This volume actually is trying to heel the boat more.

All in all this is a very subjective question and may have more to do with indivdual sailing style than the specific boats. But I do belive there can be a balance in these parameters. You just have to match them to your own style of sailing.

Tempest245 · 01-01-2009, 19:53

I agree with Bob, this is very subjective. Perhaps the best way to discover what the best feel for you, is to hitch a ride on as many boats as you can. I sailed as crew on my current boat for quite some time in a variety of conditions before I purchased her. There were no surprises for me in how she handled, thus no buyers remorse.

Even though I own my own boat, I often accept invitations to sail on others boats.
I'm not sure if this is my last boat so I am always looking around. My neighbors Sabre 362 has a full shower aft that I am very envious of.....

Amgine · 02-01-2009, 11:09

Very early in my sailing career I got a ride on an english boat in San Francisco whose owner said she was designed as a "plank on edge" boat. We spent the early part of the day running around on deck, not knowing a thing about what was going on but having a great time with the boat well heeled over under a huge gaff rig.

In the afternoon I sat on the edges of the conversation happening below, got suckered into helping out preparing dinner in the galley (fresh bread, a pie, roast...) Then was ordered to tell the crew to head back to the marina.

I was shocked to open the companionway doors to sea the crew in foulies, spray into and occasionally over the cockpit, wind blowing like snot. Down below we hadn't noticed the wind building all day due to the easy motion, but the deck crew sure had.

I'm sure there's a dividing line between comfort and speed, and I'd probably be a bit onto the comfort side of the line. But I tend to look at boats as $/kg or $/lb - and by that measure it's much easier to find the point on the continuum where speed overtakes comfort.

imagine2frolic · 02-01-2009, 12:01

Amgine,

Sounds like a typical summer afternoon on the bay. You can almost set your clock to the afternoon breeze.....lololololol.....i2f

sailorboy1 · 02-01-2009, 12:09

Maybe I haven't asked the question right. Below is copied from the Mahina Expedition site about choosing designs. This is the topic as to the question of which way the group would lend toward, the speed or the comfort?

"Few potential cruisers think of passage-making speed as important criteria in choosing an ocean cruising boat. After considerable years and miles of ocean cruising, it is now high on my personal list of priorities. The shorter the passages, the less exposure you have to heavy weather conditions. A boat with good sailing performance requires less motoring and fuel, is faster, more responsive and fun to sail in the light to moderate wind conditions so common worldwide."

MidLandOne · 02-01-2009, 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

Maybe I haven't asked the question right. Below is copied from the Mahina Expedition site about choosing designs. This is the topic as to the question of which way the group would lend toward, the speed or the comfort?

"Few potential cruisers think of passage-making speed as important criteria in choosing an ocean cruising boat. After considerable years and miles of ocean cruising, it is now high on my personal list of priorities. The shorter the passages, the less exposure you have to heavy weather conditions. A boat with good sailing performance requires less motoring and fuel, is faster, more responsive and fun to sail in the light to moderate wind conditions so common worldwide."

There are many very fast cruising boats around, often custom builds for experienced sailors having the above objectives in mind but certainly the percentage of cruisers who think this way is likely quite small - probably because of the backlog of existing older boats around, lack of awareness as to what is possible or being stuck in the past with closed mind sets (eg the "long keel is best", etc type thinking), and lack of money to have a modern custom boat built. These are often larger boats around 50 foot plus as it is easier then to build a boat that is very fast (that is fast even for their waterline length) and still be safe, luxuriously comfortable and capable of independant cruising without limits - such boats that I am personally familiar with have done Cape Horn and Southern Ocean passages for example. But also some very fast around 40 footers around along similar concepts and proven fast long passage makers (Elliot is one well known designer of such smaller boats - as well as larger). Such boats have been built since well back in the early 1990's so are not a new concept anymore.

These are generally surprisingly simple boats capable of being cruised by a husband and wife team (I know of ones built here that are cruised world wide by such of retirement age and also ones with young families), often with single line mainsheet to a block and winch with no traveller, relatively small sail plans (usually no overlapping foresails) for the boat length but made up by light but very strong construction (foam sandwhich with kevlar and carbon constructions are typical - including for internal bulkheads), good hydrodynamic design, and prods and big gennakers on line furlers to keep up light wind performance.