"speed" vs "comfort"

[Hiracer]

Thanks Bob.

If PS successors or whomever gets excited about this, blame me. Everybody else does.

I'm so far behind at work now that I actually have to do something today.

Later.

[44'cruisingcat]

Speed and comfort need not be mutually exclusive.

YouTube - Ovive sailing fast in the South Pacific

[TAREUA]

This is an entertaining thread, I've burned up gobs of my work day reading it.
As for speed vs. comfort, that is subjective vs. subjective. All sailboats are slow compared to comparable ways to cross an ocean, and all are uncomfortable if the sea is rough. In my cruising history I can never remember racing as fast as I could make the boat go to reach port ahead of a storm. I might just have been lucky with my weather. I want a boat that can carry enough sail to keep its way in light airs, but not to feel skittish in strong trade winds. Some of this may be a Caribean vs. Pacific perspective. Coastal sailing I find much less comfortable than passage making. Half way to Tahiti you don't find yourself thinking, 'In this light breeze, if I don't start to motor now, I'll get in 20 minutes after dark.' A steady speed in a boat comfortable enough to allow you to enjoy the days and the nights of a passage is the right answer for me.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Speed and comfort need not be mutually exclusive.

LOL.

Why I have been sold on cats since the late 70s.

[MidLandOne]

Boeing and Airbus are my own personal preferences as they do even more comfy and faster rides .

[James S]

44Cruisingcat

Great vid...you got some pretty serious surfing going on there.

I have to admit I'm a slow, heavy, very comfortable mono guy...but that really looks sweet.

I would have thought there would have been more pounding going on.

What happens when you quarter those following seas...is it still good?

Thanks again for the nice vid.....I could smell the sea.

[bob perry]

I think I will poke the dog with a stick:

Cruising cats and speed?
How are you defining speed?
Upwind?
Downwind?
Or a combo of both the way real boats are used.
I've seen plenty of cruising cats that were pigs upwind. Pigs I tell you.
Here we are back at trying to define "performance".
And please try not to paint me as a multi hull hater. My most favorite sail of last year was on a Farrier 28. I love a good, fast multi hull boat. I started sailing cats in 1964, Cougar cat. I'm just saying that it is best not to paint all cats with the same brush. The same way it's not smart to paint all monos with the same brush. I have designed cats and tris. I like them. But, there is a world of difference between the good performing cats and what we see marketed as cruising cats today. Treat each boat individually and look at the range of performance numbers.

Game on

[Hiracer]

Condominium disease. It afflicts not just monohulls.

What's the antidote to affluence? Modern sailboats: What do you do when you really can afford to have it all?

I'm not in that crowd but I think the Dashews were a step in the right direction. Long and narrow. Works for multis too. White went in that direction with Juniper.

But the market has gone the other direction: fat and wide. I think we can thank the charter trade for that.

[bob perry]

Sure the Dashews were in the right direction
Can you afford a long and skinny 80'er?
Get real.

I am working on the ultimate 21.5'er.
We are doing it over on Ca.
It's a group project.
One man...one boat...everything reduced to the minimum.
Great performance, upwond and down.
No, you can't bring your hair dryer.

[dcstrng]

Originally Posted by bob perry

I am working on the ultimate 21.5'er... One man...one boat...everything reduced to the minimum...

Ears perked up on that; can't stay in stealth mode... hopefully the conceptual outline will be available in time... ??

[Hiracer]

Originally Posted by bob perry

Sure the Dashews were in the right direction
Can you afford a long and skinny 80'er?
Get real.

No, but judging by what's out there these days, there are many who can go in the Dashew direction. And even more who strive to emulate. But they get mixed up and go off badly, IMO, with fat and ugly boats.

Besides, not all Dashew boats were 80 footers. I recall some mid 50 footers. There is a big difference between a 56 footer and an 80 footer.

Nevertheless, my fundamental issue is whether it's really wise, in the long run, to take consumerism to sea. Is it better to leave the consumer impulse behind when long term cruising?

Judging from what kind of new designs sell these days, fewer and fewer embrace the latter approach. Quite the opposite. Condominiumism rules.

Just saying if I were to suffer the curse of affluence, I would lean towards the Dashew model. Long and skinny. But more simply.

As it is, sailing is what I do when age has taken its toll and the knees don't climb mountains like they used to. I don't recall having many electric blenders on my climbs, and so you will not find many on my boat, 12 volt or 110. All I really need is my hammock, classical guitar, beer, and lots of good books. And if I'm really living large, a good cigar or two.

[TAREUA]

I can think of enough upsides to the curse of affluance that I'd be happy to try being infected. However, a big reason a lot of comfortable boats are slow, especially in light air, is that the skipper is just too busy being comfortable on his cockpit cushion to get up off his big fat affluance and actually sail his boat properly. The Puget Sound is full of boats of all makes drifting in ten knots of breeze with a limp cruising spinnaker hanging behind the mainsail. The problem isn't the microwave or the dvd player. Use that spinnaker pole hanging there ignored. It isn't a harpoon left over from Moby Dick.

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by TAREUA

I can think of enough upsides to the curse of affluance that I'd be happy to try being infected. However, a big reason a lot of comfortable boats are slow, especially in light air, is that the skipper is just too busy being comfortable on his cockpit cushion to get up off his big fat affluance and actually sail his boat properly. The Puget Sound is full of boats of all makes drifting in ten knots of breeze with a limp cruising spinnaker hanging behind the mainsail. The problem isn't the microwave or the dvd player. Use that spinnaker pole hanging there ignored. It isn't a harpoon left over from Moby Dick.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!! Isn't that sorta the definition of "Cruising"????

I don't have a problem with others sailing the way that THEY want to...as long as they are out there doing it responsibly...

Not every one is out there to race or risk breaking something for that matter...If they annoy you, I'd suggest sailing on by.....beat your chest as you pass........it may make you feel better.

[TAREUA]

Bad sail handling would not be my definition of cruising. My point is don't blame the boat designer, or the bring alongs, for a lack of speed if you haven't put forth much effort. I can blame Mazda for my car not going 120, but the only reason it doesn't is that I won't let it.

I'm all for relaxed passage making. Give me reliable self steering and a pile of books every time. I think good sail handling takes less time and effort than the poor version.

[Joli]

Oh boy Bob, never fun going there. An observation: Over the course of 2 weeks in the BVI's I saw a grand total of zero sailing to an upwind destination even when the wind was in the mid 20's. I will give some of them credit for trying but the vmg looked to be 2-3 knots so after a couple of hours the jib would get rolled and the engines were fired up.

I would like to own something like Kialoa V but my wife has vetoed that. I love the power a big boat generates upwind. Gotta love watching a maxi flatten waves upwind at 13 knots. Unless I trade in my wife I think we are at max LOA.

I like the Daschew boats but feel they give up too much windward ability. Great tradewind flyers though.

Final note: Couple local multi guys (racers) are looking to trade into mono's for cruising, they have no interest in cat condos. One guy is a 7 time national champ in multi's, it supprised me to hear him say he was going to a mono.

Originally Posted by bob perry

I think I will poke the dog with a stick:

Cruising cats and speed?
How are you defining speed?
Upwind?
Downwind?
Or a combo of both the way real boats are used.
I've seen plenty of cruising cats that were pigs upwind. Pigs I tell you.
Here we are back at trying to define "performance".
And please try not to paint me as a multi hull hater. My most favorite sail of last year was on a Farrier 28. I love a good, fast multi hull boat. I started sailing cats in 1964, Cougar cat. I'm just saying that it is best not to paint all cats with the same brush. The same way it's not smart to paint all monos with the same brush. I have designed cats and tris. I like them. But, there is a world of difference between the good performing cats and what we see marketed as cruising cats today. Treat each boat individually and look at the range of performance numbers.

Game on