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Old 10-01-2009, 08:07   #106
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Bashful:
If your scale works for you then fine. There is no magic in labels.
I want and need a scale that covers a wide variety of boats say a low D/L of 70 and a high of 400. If I chose 135 as "medium" it would leave a lot of boats on the heavy side that I don't see as heavy. I can certainly see if we limit the range to D/L's of 70 to 300 how your number might be better. Given today that so many production, dual purpoise boats have D/L's around 180 maybe that's a better "medium". As designs progress it's best to stay flexible with labels. I'm not trying to impose my system on anyone but it works for me.

If this conversation breaks down into a "My dog's tougher than your dog" mode then I think it's value is reduced. Go back, read my posts and you will see I have no dog in this fight. Heavy, light I design them all, i.e. ICON 65' 30,000, YONI 50', 50,0000lbs.
Both are great boats.
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Old 10-01-2009, 08:55   #107
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After two weeks on a Bene 50 I'll be happy to get back to my boat. It was ok for boat speed but tended to fall in and out of trim easily with changes in velocity. Don't think it would be a good distance cruiser with short crew, too much work to keep her on her feet.

I think a moderate displacement boat that is well balanced and nothing too extreme is really what makes the best cruisers. But everyone has their own ideas, that's why they print wallpaper.



Joli
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SA/D 20
Motion Comfort 50

Quick enough to be fun, heavy enough to carry stores but she ain't ever gonna plane. Maybe a new thread? Do cruisers want a boat that can plane?
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Old 10-01-2009, 09:05   #108
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Originally Posted by Joli View Post
Do cruisers want a boat that can plane?
Not if it means pounding....I just cant stand pounding.....even if it means I'm the last one there.

The excepting is if I'm doing 35kts in some power boat....fliing over the waves and slambing down on the other side...ohhhh yehhhhhh
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Old 10-01-2009, 09:50   #109
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Joli:
What exactly do you mean by "fall in and out of trim"?

You have a great boat and that means you are going to hold other boats to a very high standard. I can easily see you being dissdapointed with a lot of new boats.

I've done several big cruising boats that can plane. I have wondered though how many cruising sailors, with short crews have the energy to drive a boat that hard. Planing requires a skilled crew and a lot of focus on what you are doing. It also means sailing the boat in what most cruisers would consider an "overpowered" condition, i.e. chute up in 25+ knots. For most I'm not sure this is considered cruising. But, once again, it's a style issue and to each his own. I can't see Mom and Pop planing their way accross the Pacific in a 50+'er. And James S. it means pounding upwind in some conditions.
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Old 10-01-2009, 10:30   #110
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Im one who would plump for speed - but not sure that is discounting comfort.
Facts are most cruisers spend possibly 30 times more hours at anchor / berthed than underway.
Most narrow / longer keel jobbies are very uncomfortable to live aboard - whereas a lot of wider / fin keel yacht usully has the space to enjoy.
As someone said already - it's all down to personal preferences - it will be a sad day when we don't have those!
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Old 10-01-2009, 10:48   #111
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in and out of trim

Bob, I think I can answer this one. I have a Cape Dory 25D, *not* a speed demon boat.

However, in 20 gusting nearer 30 with full main and slightly lapping jib the boat will pick up skirts and stay around 7kts while I can keep it trimmed just tight. As soon as I mess up, about every 10 minutes or so, the speed drops to 5ish, and the sails have to be opened quite noticeably and then squeezed in until it pops back up to around 7.

It makes for an exhausting but exhilarating afternoon sail, arriving out of breath and a bit scared that I did something that stupid. Not something I would ever do on a passage, but racing down the back way from Anacortes to Georgia Strait...
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Old 10-01-2009, 11:04   #112
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Amgine:
Could you elaborate on that for me? I'm confused.
Are you saying that if you fall off or head up your speed drops? What's new there? All boats do that. You simply can't alter course without retrimming the sails and expect to maintain boat speed. Not in my world anyway.

"trimmed just tight"? I'm not sure what that means either.
You are either trimmed correctly or you are not.
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Old 10-01-2009, 11:20   #113
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No, the speed of the boat affects the apparent wind angle, so if my course is unchanged (constrained by the channel, but mostly because I'm relying on the autotiller while messing with the sails) I'm forced to constantly alter my sail trim. And, because the speed of the boat has a 'hump' that I'm popping over, between 5 and 7 knots of boat speed by GPS, the apparent wind angle changes noticeably.

The difficulty for me is opening the sails relative to each other just a bit, then slowly squeezing the slot again. That seems to be the key to getting over the hump and back up into speeds my boat clearly should never be able to make. I'd guess I spend more time trying to tweak that than anything else.
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Old 10-01-2009, 11:25   #114
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this is all about speed and comfort
but no one has said at what speed a boat becoms fast is 2knt or 30
what is comfort 5 permant crew to cater for your every need
how can you have all spent 8 pages decussing something that all of you peseve to be diferent.
set some perameters please:
speed range for a slow boat
speed range for a fast boat
speed range for average crusing boat
average length for a crusing mono/multi
name 5 onboard items that are for comfort only and can be removed for speed
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Old 10-01-2009, 11:30   #115
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Amgine:
I have no idea why you would want to "squeeze the slot".
I'm not new to trimming sails.
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Old 10-01-2009, 11:56   #116
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Trimming sailes

Generally speaking, I am, so I'm probably not using the appropriate terminology. I consider squeezing the slot where I get similar leech curves, then overtrim the jib until the main is a bit softer in the pocket than I think it should be. Or drop the traveler to leeward for the same effect.
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Old 10-01-2009, 13:53   #117
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If this conversation breaks down into a "My dog's tougher than your dog" mode then I think it's value is reduced.
I couldn't agree more. A favorite line from The Log of the Sea of Cortez, "Bad boats are built, surely, but not many of them."
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Old 10-01-2009, 14:58   #118
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Hi Bob,

"Falling in and out of trim" I'm refering to the boat becoming helmy. Trim has to change to keep the boat up and driving, the helm does not stay neutral as wind builds and lulls. This is tough on the driver the crew and the AP. Maybe this is just me from lots of racing miles.

I like a boat that planes but I don't think I would want one for cruising, the problem is app swings quickly as the boat accelerates and decellerates. Seems like the ap would not be quick enough to keep the boat from jibing when deep or dipping the spreaders when close to the edge

We do sail with a kite in 25 and if we are deep enough it is not bad since bs is 15 so breeze over the deck is low. My wife and I won't sail the kite at night (this boat) we tend to back off.

Cheers,

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob perry View Post
Joli:
What exactly do you mean by "fall in and out of trim"?

You have a great boat and that means you are going to hold other boats to a very high standard. I can easily see you being dissdapointed with a lot of new boats.

I've done several big cruising boats that can plane. I have wondered though how many cruising sailors, with short crews have the energy to drive a boat that hard. Planing requires a skilled crew and a lot of focus on what you are doing. It also means sailing the boat in what most cruisers would consider an "overpowered" condition, i.e. chute up in 25+ knots. For most I'm not sure this is considered cruising. But, once again, it's a style issue and to each his own. I can't see Mom and Pop planing their way accross the Pacific in a 50+'er. And James S. it means pounding upwind in some conditions.
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Old 10-01-2009, 15:28   #119
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I prefer a heavier boat, as I like to have enough stuff to build whatever I need aboard, and not have to depend on shore sources. I also like to putter while cruising ( patience my ass, I'm gonna make something).
When people ask where their boat will float fully loaded, I usually have to tell them" I have no idea." Some own a change of socks and a case of beer. Others take several trips with a pickup truck to load their belongings aboard. The latter group are delusional if they think their light displacement boat will stay light. Heavier boats will be much closer to their lines when fully loaded.
What you describe in "Falling out of trim ", is an unbalanced hull , too asymetrical , with too wide a stern and to narrow a bow. This can be avoided by designing a boat that doesn't change it's fore and aft trim when it is heeled 25 degrees.Check the LCB in both the level and the heeled positions. If it moves aft when heeled , it will be cantankerous.
A friend had Bob design him a production boat . Bob told him that a more assymetrical waterline gives good directional stability. The exact opposite is true. My friend was very disappointed with the total lack of directional stability in the boat Bob designed ,and went back to producing more traditional boats. Now he is much happier with his boats.I wonder if Bob has learned from the experience.
Harrison Butler once wrote a book on the subject, but I suspect it is now hard to find.
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Old 10-01-2009, 16:54   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philip van praag View Post
this is all about speed and comfort
but no one has said at what speed a boat becoms fast is 2knt or 30
what is comfort 5 permant crew to cater for your every need
how can you have all spent 8 pages decussing something that all of you peseve to be diferent.
set some perameters please:
speed range for a slow boat
speed range for a fast boat
speed range for average crusing boat
average length for a crusing mono/multi
name 5 onboard items that are for comfort only and can be removed for speed
Seeing as you seem to be being ignored I'll have a shot. My answers may be different to what you expect though because it is not about comparing knots between boats but expressing in terms that recognises that small boats can be fast but not as fast as bigger boats can be.

SLOW BOAT

Needs maybe 15-20 knots wind speed at least to get to displacement speed. Or gets to displacement speed at lesser wind strengths but cannot maintain that in face of regular seas/winds up to gale or cannot maintain that without unreasonable loss of crew comfort (no boat under 120 foot is comfortable EVER ). Wallows and rolls downwind. Has a lowish displacement speed for WL (ie because of high wave making resistance due to high displacement and/or less efficient hydrodynamics - I will not mention Froude number ).

Visual clues - Often long keeled or keel and skeg integrated with keel, ballast carried high, no spade rudder (not unusual to see very inefficient barn door rudders hung off the vertical), deep canoe draft (draft waterline to bottom of keelson) and full sections, may be ketch/yawl rigged (am not inferring all such are slow boats) and if not will likely have a low aspect ratio rig, cutter rigs common.

FAST BOAT

Reaches displacement speed at around 7-8 knots of wind speed and can maintain that in face of seas/winds up to gale for boat length while maintaining crew comfort. Will sail fast and true downwind in most conditions expected of a boat of same WL length eg for 50+footer to do so in Force 9 and even Force 10 if seas have not fully built. Has high displacement speed for hull length due to low displacement and efficient hydrodynamics. It may or may not have enough power to get over the hump and plane, that depending on sail area but will readily surf if so driven.

Some visual cues - Fast Boat typically have simple fore and aft rigs without overlapping foresails, may just have a single part mainsheet taken via a block to a winch with powerful vang and no traveller. Maybe two close spaced furled foresails to give efficient foresail area management. May carry a spinnaker but more likely rely on gennaker(s) on line furlers for ease of sail handling, often with a prod for them. SA/D will be high but sail area for boat length may be comparatively low (SA/D ratio being high because of low D). Shallow canoe draft, be fin keeled with ballast carried low, static WL length will be close to same as length over deck, spade rudder. Look at Bob's Icon on his web page.

AVERAGE SPEED YACHT

Somewhere in between the above.

5 THINGS FOR COMFORT ONLY THAT COULD BE REMOVED

Boats over around 45 foot - nothing need be gone without. As an example a very fast and comfortable 50+ footer I am familiar with has interior fitted out to meticulous standard in so far as joinery (but extensive use of foam sandwich overlaid with veneer for structural bulkheads, partitioning, cabinetry, etc), finishes and soft furnishings is concerned (and I say that from the perspective of being familiar with the finishes in super yachts). It carries a generator, water maker, diesel fuelled heater of capacity suitable for high latitude cruising, freezer and refrigerator, microwave, breadmaker, etc, etc all as one would hope for in a high quality liveaboard. Windlass and anchoring systems appropriate to unlimited independent cruising. This boat is the owner's home and has been proven to be able to make very fast comfortable passages for its WL including sailing frequently in high latitude heavy weather conditions.

Smaller boats, what you put in them may count more as against total displacement but there again you can't fit so much in them because of lack of room so I would expect a fitout as cosy as any boat of similar volume. If you want a complete engineering workshop on board and are an inveterate junk collector/beach comber, consider that you need six anchors and several thousand feet of cable amongst them all to suit any occasion, etc, etc I suspect one would not be of the temperament to be even looking at boats such as these.
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