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Old 12-01-2009, 14:12   #136
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Originally Posted by bob perry View Post
So, for the sake of argument, "disspassionate argument" the faster boat is better. Sitting on the deck, at the bar, under an umbrella with a cold drink in your hand is comfortable. Another day of rolling gun'l to gun'l is not.
Sorry, Bob, I'm picking you apart here. You understand this is all in good fun. You know by now that I like the give and take.

I think it's possible to make small concessions in speed to gain large measures in comfort. That is a worthwhile trade, in my view.

If we are talking about heavy, full keel, low SA/D to get comfort, then I agree with you. That's a bad trade. But that is a false choice and I reject it.

Give me moderate beam, heavy displacement, deep fin keel (I wish I had 6" more), B/D of about .35, no pinched stern but no sugerscooped stern either, heavy cruising mast, and a SA/D of 17 or 18. No racer for sure, but no slug either. And likely very comfortable and able to carry stuff with ease.

I may not get there first; I won't get there last, but I'll have lots of fun doing it.

P.S. I'm obviously on the left coast.
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Old 12-01-2009, 14:53   #137
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Hi:
I think we are both on the same page. If you are going to do a real cruising boat with stowage volume and tankage you need displacement. If I were doing a "serious" cruising boat about 40 LOA I would go with a D/L between 220 and 250. It's not exciting but it works and the boat can actually float on it's lines when loaded.

In think an SA/d under 2000 is best for just about any cruising boat. A big rig is great in light air but most cruisers do not reef early enough and I prefer not to give them a boat that is easily overpowered.

Now can I go back to arguing?
It's more fun.
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Old 12-01-2009, 14:59   #138
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Originally Posted by bob perry View Post
Hi:
Now can I go back to arguing?
It's more fun.
You know the perfect relationship?

It's where the masochist says, "Beat me, please."

And the sadist says, "No."








Sorry, that one kind of just slipped out.
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Old 12-01-2009, 15:14   #139
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Bob,

D/L of 250 on 40' LOA works for me. That would be Valiant or close to it, yes?

Let's argue about 35' LOA--a real cruiser with storage and tankage, albeit a small version. What D/L would you use, no limitation from hull material?

I'm guessing 240 to 270. Am I about right?

Of course you are going to want as little overhang as possible, so that longer LWL makes hitting those numbers easier. Add some overhang on the bow and hitting 240 will be a problem.

No?

Stirring the pot here.
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Old 12-01-2009, 16:21   #140
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Yes, I would do away will almost all the overhang to get as long a DWL as possible. I'd retain some for aesthetics and I might like some overhang forward to keep the anchor off the stem. If I had a sprit I'd go with a near plumb stem.

Sure, 260 to 270 would give me enough displ to do a good volume interior with tanks and enough displ left over for a B/D around 35% maybe 34%.

Did you see that boat I drew for Pacific Seacraft just before they went tits up? It's pretty much what you are describing.
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Old 12-01-2009, 18:14   #141
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Did you see that boat I drew for Pacific Seacraft just before they went tits up? It's pretty much what you are describing.
No, unfortunately I didn't see your PS design. Was that about 35'? That would have been sweet.

Can you show it to me now, or is that off limits?

I know you did some of 35 footers earlier in your career, but it seems your days as a production boat designer have been slowing down. You seem to be doing mostly custom work these days. (I'm guessing from your book.) I would also guess that most people with the pocketbook to do a custom boat don't go for 35 feet LOA. So, I haven't seen you do any smallish cruisers lately.

But I don't watch these things too close, so maybe I'm missing something.

Seems to me the demand for 35' pure cruisers has pretty much dried up in this country, although some new found austerity might change things. Boat market seems to be in a nose dive right now. I was at the boat last Saturday and noticed that the boat prices posted on broker windows were about 15% lower than last summer, at least. And I don't even know what the selling prices were. Free fall.

BTY, I just moved my slip a few slots and seems I'm right next to a Baba 35. Nice boat. Stern not to my taste, but I like the rest of it. It's fun comparing jibstay location, mast location, mast height, and boom end with my boat. This spring I'll get myself invited inside. Haven't seen the owner yet. Also, I get to walk by, not one but, two Valiants onroute to my slip.

Bows: I'm a real stick in the mud, Bob. I LIKE bow overhang. Gotta love the look. I'll admit from a physics perspective, bow overhang is all but indefensible. But boats, especially sailboats, are part and parcel of romantic dreams. Got to love the look. Give me bow overhang. Bet you hear that a lot and hate it.

But, hey, I love draft. I wish my boat had more.

Quote:
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If I had a sprit I'd go with a near plumb stem.
Other than some insignificant few pounds, what's the difference between a plumb bow with sprit versus a bow with some overhang sans sprit--assuming same DWL? Seems to me functionally the same, but I like the looks of one better than the other. The version with the overhang has got to be stronger.

My opinion: Overhang is bad only when you fail to compare boats by DWL.
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Old 12-01-2009, 18:54   #142
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Bows: I'm a real stick in the mud, Bob. I LIKE bow overhang. Gotta love the look. I'll admit from a physics perspective, bow overhang is all but indefensible. But boats, especially sailboats, are part and parcel of romantic dreams. Got to love the look. Give me bow overhang. Bet you hear that a lot and hate it.

I am with you here. A little over hang and a little flare would help keep things a little drier too, no?

What's great about these conversations is the fact the the sea and weather is infinitely variable.

Not to divert to racing and handicapping systems but this is why there is always a different winner in handicapped races. The handicap for a particular boat works in one set of variables the best.

Drawing the conclusion that a particular boat will do best in one set of variables. The trick is opening th eenvelop far enough such that a boat works reasonably well in a variety of conditions and excels in the conditions encountered most often.
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Old 12-01-2009, 19:19   #143
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I am with you here. A little over hang and a little flare would help keep things a little drier too, no?
Ya, I'm with me too, but just to contradict myself I'll go on record by saying that I've always liked the look of the Pardey's boats too. Long bowsprit and plumb bow.

I would never own one, but I could anchor next to one every night.

OTOH, I also like the look of the old Swans.

I'm a boat whore.

The aesthetics of boats is a dangerous topic. Talking bondes and brunettes again.
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Old 12-01-2009, 20:41   #144
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Ok, fine. Think of it as a style thing. If LOA is fixed then the bpwsprit adds to fore triangle base and helps balance the boat while the long DWL insures that we leave notning on the table in terms of boat speed. If LOA foats and DWL is fixed your argument works, i.e. a little or some bow overhang makes the boat dryer and gives more deck space forward. But, the style element plays a role too, Some one may want the look of the near plumb stem. There are many ways we can go. I go into this discussion in great detail in my book. In fact I have an entire chapter along with VPP results of different bow treatments.

Can you see the drawings of the PSC 38? Sure you can. Is there some way I can post a pdf file here? Tell me how to do it and I'll post drawings.

I like old Swans too. I like Pardey's boat too.
Show me the rule that says we can't like a variety of types.
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Old 12-01-2009, 20:47   #145
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psc 38 drawing

here is one for starters.
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File Type: pdf pacific seacraft 38 Layout CD.pdf (309.8 KB, 152 views)
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Old 12-01-2009, 23:44   #146
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PS 38.5 damn fine boat. My kind of boat. Too bad PS went belly up. I would have loved to see that in the flesh.

Out of curiosity, what's the E, P, and J measurements for the rig? Mainly I'm curious about how you split the front and back sail triangles, but thought I would check height too.

TIA.

Is that a swing down step on the stern?
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Old 13-01-2009, 01:38   #147
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Bob
Thanks for the drawings...for some of us less technical types, drawings make following this conversation a damn site easier.
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Old 13-01-2009, 07:19   #148
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Pacific Seacraft 38 orphan

Here is my proposed sail plan.
This image is best viewed if you print it out.
I hope I am not going to get in trouble with the current PSC for using their name. They are certainly most welcome to the design.
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File Type: pdf pacific seacraft 38B rig .pdf (388.2 KB, 81 views)
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Old 13-01-2009, 08:48   #149
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So that swim platform folds up to close the openning in the transom...nice.

No rigid boom vang? I don't know two much about them I thought they were pretty much always preferable to none...is that right.

Nice boat
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Old 13-01-2009, 11:19   #150
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James:
Look again. I clearly show a boom vang. If you want it rigid you can have it rigid. I just show a generic vang.
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