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**sneuman** · 01-03-2010, 04:38

I suspect an Open 60 "converted over for cruising" would be a poor solution. These boats are designed to be sailed stripped down to the carbon fiber matt on the inside. What would happen if the boat were loaded for cruising comfort? The again, Abby S. has got an Open 40. Maybe I'm wrong.

barnakiel · 01-03-2010, 12:15

I can see this thread, like many before, drifts towards "it has to be big, it has to be steel, alloy, Bruce Roberts and a Russian submarine ;-))).

Well, any of the boats you asked will do the job. Sure they have to be in very good shape and all systems 100% ready for long period of abuse.

Today there are even 15 y.o. girls sailing around the world in 34 footers. So why not a Swan 60, or a Bavaria 640.

Which brings me to the point that you may consider picking up the boat (the type and the size of the boat) that you feel comfortable sailing, in any conditions. Have you single-handed a Swan 60 before? Have you single-handed a Hanse 630? Asking, because IMHO neither is conductive to single-handing, and especially when sailing S of the three capes (which I believe is your target).

Will be back for more, love such threads.

b.

barnakiel · 01-03-2010, 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by sneuman

I suspect an Open 60 "converted over for cruising" would be a poor solution. These boats are designed to be sailed stripped down to the carbon fiber matt on the inside. What would happen if the boat were loaded for cruising comfort? The again, Abby S. has got an Open 40. Maybe I'm wrong.

Well, look at Ourson Rapide - no lack of comfort there. And she looks like a dream to single-hand and esp. so on the run - could be one of the best choices for such a job. (In fact she IS - you can look up her runs at ARC homesite). I think even a converted Open 60 can be one of the best choices - because Open 60s are designed just for that. And before Miss Sunderland there was the British teen - Mike Perham (?) He (nearly) made it, too. b

OceanPlanet · 01-03-2010, 12:37

It's too late now (the boat is sold), but for all the talk about 60' being too big....you could steer OceanPlanet with one hand at 20+ kts.

Even as slow as 8-9kts you could knock someone off their feet on the foredeck (if they weren't hanging on to something) with a quick pull on the tiller. Although going only 8-9kts was pretty rare...

Only heavy, poorly-designed boats are hard to steer...

barnakiel · 01-03-2010, 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanshin

Hud3 - that is kind of what I expected, a thoroughbred racing machine which rewards skilled helmsmanship with incredible speed but requires constant and carefull attention. No setting the windvane and going to sleep for those raceboats!

Well, yes/no:

They can be steered by either the auto in course or wind mode, much depending on how much wind there is and where it comes from. But not by a windvane. And the autopilot will be a good unit with the rate gyro and all possible toys AND a very powerful unit too.

Open 60s are not steered by hand unless something breaks in the autopilot department or if the sail is a tourist attraction and you are crewed up. They will also be steered by hand in very light conditions (to make gains), and at times in extremely strong conditions (to survive), esp. in the racing field. Much less so in the cruising mod.

b.

OceanPlanet · 01-03-2010, 12:57

The Open 60's are steered by hand only when there is no other work to be done.

It is fun and not difficult. But one feels guilty before long, knowing that it's time for the next position report, website/email update, sail change, charging session, dinner, or time for a nap...

Keep in mind that they are usually sailed solo or doublehanded!

B.

barnakiel · 01-03-2010, 13:01

Hahaha - I love this thread. I really do.

So what do we read here: 60' to big and only 35' will do? Have you ever looked at displacement of the IMOCA? Do you still claim it is a big boat? Have you ever handled an Open type of boat? Do you still claim they are too big?

Or here: only epoxy, carbon or Najad? C'mon - Najad is an UPWIND cruiser, not a boat for downwind ride? Epoxy carbon or paper-mache - whatever - the boat must be well designed, well built, well prepared. Big or small. New or old.

Look at Jessica and feel ashamed!

To make a bad case worse have a look at the Atlantic (nl) boats, and at the aforementioned Cigale from Alubat. It is 21 century, the small/heavy boat is OUT, the big light one is IN.

Look at Abby and feel ashamed of yourselves.

;-)))
barnie

OceanPlanet · 01-03-2010, 13:07

I will say this...sailing an Open 60 is a lot like getting high-speed internet: it is very hard to go back to the slow way...

Which is one reason why I rarely sail "for fun" now, unless I'm hired to!

steve1734 · 01-03-2010, 14:15

I don't want to be a wet blanket but....
You can buy an S&S 34 for $50k, spend another $30k on outfitting, and be sure of making it. And averageing 6-7 knots overall, you are not far off the Ave speed of the clippers. You will also get your money back.
Do any here, seriously considering or recommending a 60 footer for a solo circumnatigation, ask this question: Do you want to race or cruise? Sure, an Open 60 will race, but you have to be a bit mad to consider it for pleasure. These boats, all 30 tons of them, will plane in 20 knots of wind. These Whitbread type boats cost a fortune to run. You have to run the gen set 24 hrs a day to run the hydraulics and electronics. Has anyone ever tried to do a solo sail change on one of these? I crewed on a Volvo 60 from Capetown to Sydney. It took five guys to swap the genny for a stormsail. We were surfing out of control at 25 knots and heeling at 40 degrees at the time, with 2 feet of water in the bilge. And some days we were doing a dozen sail changes a day, because if you dont keep the power out of the sails in those seas, you will die. At one stage were her doing 15 knots bare masted, with everything tossed astern, sheets, sea anchors etc. You have to slow down to be slower than the speed of the swells. If you don't let them catch up and slide under you, its like taking off a 50 foot wave on your surfboard on at Sunset Beach. You will simply go over the falls and pitchfork maybe two to three times. So speed is the killer in those waters. Go slow and live.
The sails on a 60 are bigger than a 12 meter and if you tear one its $60k. A new mast is the cost of a decent house.
We regularly send out a Navy frigate to rescue solo yachtsmen from the Southern Ocean at a cost of $3m a time. Right now, racing, you have about a one in three chance of not ending up upside down at some stage, while if you are in a smaller, full keel displacement boat, you will bog around like a cork and probably see your children again.
I think that if anyone is considering such a trip, who has not done it before on a crewed yacht, then do so first. And if anyone says, "oh, I'll keep away from the southern ocean", well, any circumnavigation must go below the three capes...the Horn, Good Hope and Howe and at 40 degrees or lower. Its exciting for a half day or so but you are looking a 3+ months in those latitudes.
I've done it twice and I've done five Sydney to Hobarts. I'm available to anyone who wants to know what its like and how to survive it. No polish on this apple, just reality.

OceanPlanet · 01-03-2010, 14:33

Well, last year you could have gotten OceanPlanet for less than $100k. 30 tons? I don't an Open 60 that weighs half that. OP was under 10 tons, soaking wet. The old Volvo 60's are very heavy in comparison, with a minimum weight of nearly 30,000lbs in the class rules.

However, you bring up a valid issue regarding sail costs. They are expensive to replace, but it's a different situation on every boat. The used sails on OP were still good for many more ocean miles, but probably not for racing competitvely.

The fractional rig with small headsails on OP was easy to handle. I won't go into details here but twice singlehanded around the world ought to have proved something.

V60's and V70's are designed for crewed sailing...whole different design approach.

Now the BIG knock you could throw at all the Open 60's regarding cruising conversions is the DRAFT...4.5M (14'10"). That was/is a problem in a lot of places.

**Jim Cate** · 01-03-2010, 15:03

G'Day All,

Lots of interesting and often sound advice being offered here.

I am left with the distinct feeling that anyone with so little personal experience and knowledge that he must ask the OP's original questions probably shouldn't be considering this undertaking at this time.

But then, I tend towards cynicism...

Cheers,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Towlers Bay, NSW Oz

barnakiel · 01-03-2010, 16:33

An Open 60 is different from a VOR60. And there is a good choice of Open 50, 40 and Class 40 boats around. A new Class 40 (say a Pogo 40) can be had at a very good price. (But a 40' ULDB is not a lot of a boat in the Southern Ocean).

Other than racing (or beating some illusionary record) I cannot see how a decent 30-40' footer could not do the same trip in safety and comfort. Things like a well prepared Valiant or Koopman are not very expensive (not very expensive - related to an Open 60 boat) and have a very sound long-distance / bad weather record.

A mad man on a budget will (sporadically) do it in a lesser boat. No comfort and marginal safety, but has been done before.

Original poster - your opinions / choices / motivations / limitations ?
b.

b.

Randyonr3 · 01-03-2010, 17:25

So the topic has gone from one side to the other, from a full keel 30 footer to an open 60 in southern waters..
But there is a medium between the two.. and a thousand boats to chose from.. but its shown that you can do an around the world adventure in a performance boat and do it singlehanded..
The origional boat the OP had brought up being a 42s7 would do the trip nicely..