Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 20-07-2008, 10:41   #31
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,413
Shiva is a 36' deep fin feel fractional rig set for single hand sailing. She has a lot of interior volume and is larger below than many 40' boats. The accommodation is fine for a cruising couple and the occasional guests. We don't feel cramped or without any of the creature comforts of larger yachts. Even on this yacht the forces get large wind the wind decides to blow. We rely on the windlass to anchor and this makes dropping and upping it breeze. It's got to be effortless because when you cruise you anchor as much as your drive your car on land.

More space would be great, but it comes at a real cost which doesn't merit it when the downsides are considered. Longer waterlines mean less time out there and that IS also a safety factor. Shiva is a good sailer so we feel that the 30 waterline is adequate. The accommodation plan is super in that we have a huge U shaped galley, full separate chart table and something which resembles an aft cabin. Our V is used a a closet catch all except when we host guests.

I'd like a shop, an office and a spare room with a head for guests. But mostly in my dreams. Our 36 works for us. We can come along side for fuel and water without giving a second thought. These types of things matter in actually using a boat. We use it... because of her size and are not beholden to crew for anything.
__________________

__________________
Sandero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-07-2008, 14:48   #32
Registered User
 
Cowboy Sailer's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: on the boat. Gulf Coast
Boat: C&C 38'
Posts: 351
Images: 2
Quackedo, that should be 400 lbs of force in your example of the wind increasing from 10 to 20 knots when it exerted 100 lbs of force at 10 knots. Was this a test?
__________________

__________________
Jerry and Denver
Happy Old cruisers!
Cowboy Sailer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-07-2008, 12:37   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: The Neteherlands, now India
Boat: Phillip Rhodes 60 ft
Posts: 101
Send a message via Skype™ to Alondra
All the words about big boats are simply not reality when you not lived on one. We are on a 60 ft classic (Alondra Sailing - exclusive charter) and she is behaving perfect, also alone. And wheter for anchor or in a marina, it all comes down to figures. And I dare the one who can explain me that my yacht is more expensive than his. yes, it uses more diesel, yes it is a little more expensive in (expensive) marina's but most likely, I get there in a better shape in about half the time tha others (and I can prove that) and I have spent far less money over the last 5 years on the boat tan I ever did in my home before.
good luck on your search, buy the biggest you can affort, it will pay off.
Rene
__________________
Alondra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-07-2008, 13:19   #34
cruiser

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,525
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alondra View Post
All the words about big boats are simply not reality when you not lived on one. We are on a 60 ft classic (Alondra Sailing - exclusive charter) and she is behaving perfect, also alone. And wheter for anchor or in a marina, it all comes down to figures. And I dare the one who can explain me that my yacht is more expensive than his. yes, it uses more diesel, yes it is a little more expensive in (expensive) marina's but most likely, I get there in a better shape in about half the time tha others (and I can prove that) and I have spent far less money over the last 5 years on the boat tan I ever did in my home before.
good luck on your search, buy the biggest you can affort, it will pay off.
Rene
I agree wholeheartedly with this post.

Although my new boat is a small one due to the initial wad of cash needed to buy a boat, a heavier boat will be able to anchor in places where I'd be puking my brains out and flying across the cabin.

If I had infinite $$, I'd sure have a lot bigger of a boat.

That bit of wisdom, as the poster says, only comes from living on larger boats and smaller boats and comparing the two.
__________________
ssullivan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-07-2008, 13:51   #35
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 769
I'm a little confused. Is the argument that on a larger boat, you are less likely to break gear, and have to replace it (thus saving money)?

I have noticed that the purchase and maint cost seems to increase exponentially, doubling roughly every 6-8 feet up to about 40 feet. I have no experience above that size, so I have no idea. Does maint expense plateau at some point? Seems like it probably should?
__________________
anotherT34C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-07-2008, 14:42   #36
cruiser

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,525
Quote:
Originally Posted by anotherT34C View Post
I'm a little confused. Is the argument that on a larger boat, you are less likely to break gear, and have to replace it (thus saving money)?

I have noticed that the purchase and maint cost seems to increase exponentially, doubling roughly every 6-8 feet up to about 40 feet. I have no experience above that size, so I have no idea. Does maint expense plateau at some point? Seems like it probably should?
Sorry... I should have stated that this is true when you are anchoring and cruising. At an expensive dock, the costs of the larger boat really come into play in the forms of slip fees.

Still, size does matter. Living aboard at anchor, you come to appreciate displacement, which is something I no longer have since I'm in a cat.

The poster above me (I think) is trying to convey that it's only a *little* more expensive for a *lot* more comfort, speed, live ability, etc...

I tend to agree with that.

Operating costs of my 34' cat and 45' mono are basically equal, except that I used 1 gallon less bottom paint on the cat and slips are less expensive. Living at anchor though? Same price no matter what size.
__________________
ssullivan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-07-2008, 15:34   #37
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 769
I often wonder about comfort at anchor v size. I don't have too much varied experience to go on, but I'd say on a 26' I was comfortable at anchor maybe 40% of the time, on a 34' I'm comfortable about 85% of the time. I guess the trend continues as boats get bigger. On a 45' maybe the figure would be 95%, and on a 55' 99%. I'd have to wonder if that extra 4% is worth the doubling of cost. How then can I justify buying my dream 65' wooden schooner? (yea right)
__________________
anotherT34C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-07-2008, 15:51   #38
Registered User
 
Delezynski's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Aboard Guenevere
Boat: Nor'Sea 27, Guenevere
Posts: 227
Send a message via Skype™ to Delezynski
comfort at anchor v size

comfort at anchor v size...

AnotherT34C

I don't think you can draw a conclusion on comfort at anchor v size. We have been at anchor a lot on our 27 foot boat and only been uncomfortable when there was a LONG, SLOW, swell coming in and I didn't put out a Stearn anchor or flopper stopper.

I have sailed some 41 foot boats that I was NEVER as comfortable on as I am aboard our boat!

You also have to consider where you can anchor. Hay I would like to see you snug into that very tight and protected harbor/hurricane hold I can put our 27 into with that dream 65' wooden schooner (HAY, I am rooting for ya!! ).

Greg
__________________
Our boat is our bedroom, the world has become our living room.


Greg & Jill Delezynski
Cruising aboard Guenevere
Home Page:www.svguenevere.com
Delezynski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-07-2008, 16:09   #39
Registered User

Join Date: May 2007
Location: New Zealand
Boat: Trismus 37
Posts: 760
I am assuming that by comfort you mean, peace of mind at anchor, rather than comfort as in lack of rolling etc.
__________________
Steve Pope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-07-2008, 16:30   #40
Registered User
 
vacendak's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 166
Nigel Calder in his "Cruising Handbook" has mentioned as an "ideal" offshore
monohull a 43-footer, designed by Jay Paris (see pp. 258 and on)
__________________
vacendak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-07-2008, 17:01   #41
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,413
This debate cannot be resolved without the cost factor. When nmoney is no object other considerations play a larger part in the decision.

No one would want less space if they could have more; a larger fridge, cabinets, lockers, wider berths, large tanks a desk, a workshop,a separate shower.. a washing machine and dryer, a large formate flat screen tv and so on... lots of comfy space. This takes more time to clean and so forth too!

But large accommodations means a larger volume and that means larger engine and sail plan, ground tackle, running rigging and FORCES more expensive and complex. gear. So even if expense is no issue (you won Lotto) then you need to deal with the HANDLING issues, both at sea and in port. In light airs the larger yachts may be managable by a short handed crew, but not so in heavy weather withut serious mechanical assist. Just raising a main may mean a fuler or a motorized system. Forget anchoring without a windlass. And coming along side you need a large dock and some crew as you are not going to hop off the boat and tie her up. Think bow thrusters too.

It seems to me from my limited experience that for a couple the sweet spot for size is 40-45'. They have generous accommodation plans and still can be handled by a crew of one or two even in a blow. They have decent waterlines and can do fast passages and enough space so you can entertain guests and not feel like you are camping out all the time... unless that is what you like.

When you consider the time involved in tacking care of a bigger boat you need to remember that areas get bigger fast and here is where it all comes together, cost, care, handling, accommodations, freedom to move, and berth the vessel.

Some smaller designs have bigger accommodations plans and some longer narrow boats have very small ones, so hull form is yet another issue to consider and this applies to performance as well as accommodation. And there are sloops and ketches and cat boats and it is a rather complex matrix of factors so all of this matters and just isolating "size" as the key is a fool's game. But it is fun to play, ain't it?
__________________
Sandero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-07-2008, 19:14   #42
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lakeland, FL
Posts: 1,296
Many good points here. Some observations:

1. I agree with Paul because most cruisers are baby boomers and health issues are perhaps now the biggest reason that people quit cruising. It is for us. But, a few years ago the biggest reason seemed to be that it just didn’t turn out to be fun living on the boat (or the budget) that people thought would be OK. Somehow the boat that was great for weekends and one or two week vacations just didn’t measure up for extended living. Much of this has to do with size.

2. Anyone who is used to living in a house and wants to go cruising on a sailboat needs to downsize and simplify. Even a 45 footer probably has less real living space than a nice studio apartment. I have never been on a serious cruising boat that, with the possible exception of a protected sleeping space, was not crammed with provisions, supplies, tools, spare parts, etc.

3. Never buy a boat for the children, friends, relatives, etc. who might come to visit you. If you want to cruise and have real (not just layout) stateroom style accommodation for 6 people or 3 couples, you will need more than 50' in a monohull; and it will be a waste because this is your home and it only needs to accommodate you. We met a guy who bought an ex-charter 49' twin fore and aft "stateroom" Beneteau - the first thing he did was knock out the bulkhead between the aft "staterooms" to make a "real" sleeping space. Six people can camp out in ‘reasonable’ comfort on a 27 footer for a day or two and probably have a blast.

4. Your needs/wants/expectations are personal to you. But, with the exception of marina hoppers who always have shore power and fresh water available, at some level cruising is all about self sufficiency. A big boat can carry more stuff. If you want a hot fresh water shower every day, a small boat with small tankage will have you more or less continually shopping for water and fuel. There are ways around this with solar and wind generators, mega batteries, watermakers, etc., but it all fits better on a big boat. The original refrigerator on our 34 footer would hold a six pack of beer, a pound of bacon and a dozen eggs - we expanded it. But, even a 50 footer is unlikely to have something like a ‘real’ refrigerator.

5. FWIW, after 2+ years of cruising the Bahamas/Caribbean in a 34 footer we came back to buy a bigger boat - probably a Hunter 40. We boatsat one of these for two weeks in Grenada and fell in love with it. Then health issues surfaced and well ......... we're stuck.

6. You are correct to charter. This is the easiest (not least expensive) way to find out what it’s really like and what you really want/need.
__________________
slomotion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-07-2008, 21:44   #43
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: The Neteherlands, now India
Boat: Phillip Rhodes 60 ft
Posts: 101
Send a message via Skype™ to Alondra
pirate Some more comments on my post...

Reading everything, still there is a lot of assumption on costs etcetera without having had a bigger boat. We just crossed the red sea with a group of 15 yachts, most of them smaller than Alondra (60ft). In stormy conditions (most of the time) everybody went way back or had to og back to the previous anchorage and had rough times where we had already difficulties feeling comfortable. And that had nothing to do with handling.

Handling in Ports or marina's is about knowing what to do. Some small boats are easy to handle, other are not. That is the same with big boats.
And about anchoring I can say that I have never been at a place where I could not fit in where others could. Drawing 1.75 m (dropkeel) I can get into places some Benetaux can only dream of.

Just another thought. On crossing from Salalah (Oman) to Mumbai (India) some 1100 NM we took 7,5 day in very light winds. The first of fifteen boat after us in came 2 days later. The last (an Ovni 36!) was there day 12.

Yes, bigger boats have bigger gear. Also stronger. And yes, everything breaks. Also on bigger boats. But most of it is repairable, with a good set of mind and a tool kit.
And yes, we have a fridge, an 8 kw generator, plenty of warm water, lots of space, and yes, she is easy to handle.
At extremely higher costs? I bought this yacht for the same price a new beneteau 36 would cost. So not hard to make a choice there.
Get out there, buy the biggest you ca affort and you will have the benefit of it. Don't worry.

And of course. When I bought my firts Renault 5 I was proud and didn't think of anything else. Later, when I had a bigger car, more safe and comfy I felt the same and would have never gone back to the old Renault again... Life goes on!

Have a nice day you all!

Rene
Alondra Sailing
__________________
Alondra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2008, 06:59   #44
Registered User
 
dcstrng's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Virginia
Boat: Oday30-B24
Posts: 580
Images: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by slomotion View Post
with the exception of marina hoppers who always have shore power and fresh water available, at some level cruising is all about self sufficiency. A big boat can carry more stuff...

Yep, I think that is just about right on the money… This would be fun to quantify (something other than straight arithmetic-mean style analysis), but the simple fact is a huge number of factors (can) weigh into determining what is the right size boat… for some, cruising is leisurely overnight passages, with prolonged periods at anchor, for others it is a circumnavigation that basically means keeping moving on a modest schedule, with less time at anchor to stay with the favorable weather patterns (or to stay ahead of the unfavorable ones…); and probably every variation in between… then, of course, there is the money issue...

In rereading several of his accounts, I was struck by the history of Bernard Moitessier – size-wise, his vessels started off modestly a little over thrity feet, largely because of budget I believe -- at first… through a couple of boats he ended up with his Joshua (39’ plus sprit). Interestingly, his original sketch for what became Joshua was for a more modest boat in the mid-thirty foot range, but he acquiesced toward the larger vessel… after doubling the Horn several times, and after Joshua was heavily damaged, his final vessel was back almost (dimensionally, at least) within his original parameters in the mid-30 foot range… of course, arguably, Moitessier was a very experienced and utilitarian sailor, more on the voyager end of the continuum (with voyagers sailing the most actively, dockside live-boards sailing minimally and recreational/sabbatical cruisers generally falling in-between somewhere; depending on the proclivities of the skipper/admiral), but he didn’t start off that way and in truth almost all his vessels from his early days to the end were in the low-to-mid-thirty-foot range, with Joshua being the modest exception, and apparently nearly accidentally so...

Builders/designers like the Dashews with their Deerfoot series some decades ago, really put “paid” on viability of the larger-vessel, smaller-crew theory, and along with newer technology and the expanding boomer financial-capability to purchase it, many manufactures joined the bigger is better party… These days a modestly experienced couple with fifty-foot-plus aspirations is not considered as cuckoo as they might have been half a century ago – assuming they aren’t going to dash off for the high-latitudes immediately… conversely, there are many seamanlike voyages now successfully accomplished on boats well below what was considered “proper” just a few decades ago as well… short answer is, nearly anything is logically possible these days, and the question isn’t just, “does size matter,” but rather one may logical ask “for what…” Amateur sailors are crossing oceans on boats from the mid-teens to seventy foot range so regularly now, neither gets much more than an appreciative nod, even in the sailing press…

Guess it boils down to how big one wants the refrigerator to be, and then size the support systems and vessel accordingly… eventually add a mast or two and a few sails, and then go… somewhere…
__________________

__________________
Larry
dcstrng is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Maybe size dosnt matter ? redbreast Multihull Sailboats 4 20-05-2008 03:13
Engine size Stranded Mariner Engines and Propulsion Systems 6 19-09-2007 22:54
CATagory vs. size lotuseker General Sailing Forum 2 24-07-2007 15:32
An exhausting sooty matter! seafox Construction, Maintenance & Refit 11 16-07-2006 01:51



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:15.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.