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Old 11-04-2013, 18:49   #31
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Re: Size Matter

God love you for wanting to build but man is it going to cost you.

I guess I say that because I want sail, not build. And too much work kept me from keeping (and sailing) my (ex) boat.

Buy the boat and build the dingy.
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Old 11-04-2013, 19:09   #32
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Re: Size Matter

Lots of good advice in this thread.

The 6 feet of length difference also will be roughly 2 feet of beam difference so its actually a pretty big difference. Walk around on a 36 footer and then on a 42 footer, assuming both are cruisers, and you will really appreciate the difference.

I like the idea of buying someone else's uncompleted project. A bare hull can sometimes be had pretty darn cheap, sometimes just for hauling it off. Sure, the bare hull is only a small part of the work, but from there, you can break it up into little jobs and take your time, completing steps as funds and time become available.

Building from scratch you are DEFINITELY making the right choice in building a First Project boat instead of your Dream Boat. Make your mistakes on the former, not the latter. And that will be a pretty good first project, one you will get plenty of use out of. But I would start even smaller, like with a small sailing skiff of some sort. Put 6 weeks into a glass-over-ply 20 foot centerboard daysailer and I bet you can go all in at under $1k, not counting trailer. Or even go smaller, like maybe a 10-12 foot dinghy. You will need a dink for your final boat, anyway, and your kids will love sailing it on local ponds and lakes. You can put as much or as little care and craftsmanship into a dinghy as you like, and it will still likely float, handle well under oars, push with a tiny motor, or sail after a fashion.

DON'T DO THIS if you are not going to enjoy doing it! Building your own boat is about the worst way possible to get a boat, unless you love building it. I happen to enjoy it and if I had a place to build, I would be building now. And it is a big PITA... heartbreak after heartbreak, as you realize that this and that won't let you do that and this, and that this should have been done before that, or that has to be undone so you can re-do this, or that you didn't get enough resin or you got a hardener that is great for winter but too fast in the summer, or you got the wrong matt and it falls apart with your resin or this or that or that or this... you need to love it. Take a sawzall to a piece of work that you lovingly crafted and were so proud of, and if you can't grin while you do it, you aren't gonna make a boatbuilder. Wait till you find out your engine won't fit, or the vent for your stove will be in an impossible location topside, or your chainplates just aren't gonna work, or you were counting on lead ballast but prices have driven you to concrete and you don't have room for that much pour, or the mast that you knew was yours for the asking just got sold on ebay... and you are gonna sail this thing all over the world with your family aboard! Oh, and sell a homebuilt boat... do it just once, and prepare to be heartbroken. Please, don't think about the difference between construction cost and sale price, and never never think about your labor investment. But if you love building it, then the building of it is its own reward, and the finished boat is just a little lagniappe. If you are a real boatbuilder, basically, on completion and maiden voyage, it is a time of sadness on the one hand... nothing left to do, nothing major, anyway. On the other hand, it is an end that can also be a new beginning. What will I build next?

"let's go sailing, Dad"
"Not now... I'm thinking about something. You kids go on without me, and have fun..."

NOW... pet peeves of mine, and if you think about them, I am sure they will become yours.
1. GALLEY SINK TOO SMALL. Even a double sink is too small when both are too small. Ideally, you should be able to even wash clothes or clean fish in the sink. Shoe-box size sinks are NOT an extra nautical touch. They are a PITA.
2. Single voltage battery charger. Sure, you may never need to charge batts from 220, but you MIGHT, and what a bummer when you can't but you need to!
3. Propane or alcohol or gasoline stove. Go diesel or kero! Currently my stove is a $56 primus type all brass stove from St Paul Mercantile, runs great on diesel OR kerosene. No dangerous fumes! No matter where you go, you can find those two fuels, and often kerosene is dirt cheap, especially in third world countries where it is untaxed or lightly taxed because poor people need it for cooking.
4. Total reliance on electricity for any thing. Every major system on the boat should work after a fashion in the absence of electricity.
5. No easy way to climb the mast. If you built it, you better believe you are gonna have to climb it. It's just one of those things. You can tame mast steps by rigging a wire or line along the outer ends or corners of the steps, so halyards don't get caught around them.
6. Stuff that can't be replaced by improvised or homebrewed stuff. Homebuilding is your chance to get it right, and think about every single thing that can break, wear out, burn out, melt, dissolve, rust, sieze, etc. cause nothing is bulletproof and you never know what is gonna break next or what you are gonna have on hand to fix it with.
7. Fancy pants yachty stuff that costs 3 times as much as stuff you get from home depot or walmart but doesn't work a bit better. Sometimes, meticulous craftsmanship or exclusive, clever design, or finest materials matter. But most of the time, NOT.
8. Overpowering. I see a lot of boats with 50-odd horsepower diesels that could be operated more efficiently with 20 or 30hp, lots of boats with 30hp that would be just fine with a 13hp diesel or even a 6hp outboard. Unless you have a particular area in mind where you might need to motor into some serious wind and seas for some reason, the ideal power level IMHO is that where the engine at 90% power will bring you up to just under theoretical hull speed in reasonably calm conditions. Then at about 60% power you have some very economical long-legged motoring ability, but you can still get the boat going as fast as it is ever gonna go with any reasonable size engine.
8. used engine in a new boat. Usually, that is a mistake. A used engine was probably some other poor bastard's headache. Don't let it be yours. Used engine to replace a kaput motor in a tired old boat not worth the cost of a new engine? Sure. That's sometimes the smart thing to do. But don't put a used motor in your new boat just to save a couple of grand. Even a rebuild should call for some hesitation. It will bite you in the butt sooner or later.
9. Easy-climb sterns. Don't invite intruders to your boat. Swim platform? Sugar-scoop? Permanent ladder? Put it this way. Say you are a criminal type person and you are looking around at an anchorage with a few nice boats in it. Which boat is gonna make you the most curious about the treasures inside... the one easy to climb up on, or the one hard to climb up on? Rope ladder, pilot ladder, even a knotted rope are fine... just put them away when not needed. An inflatable air mattress with a canvas or sumbrella cover makes a dandy swim platform when it is nice and calm. You don't need to make boarding permanently easy.
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Old 11-04-2013, 20:38   #33
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Re: Size Matter

My biggest fear of building boat myself, would be that it would sail like pig when finished
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Old 12-04-2013, 03:43   #34
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Re: Size Matter

iv sailed many miles in allsorts,(ferro alloy glass steel wood foam sandwitsh bolsa core)and every mile was as good as the other becouse i was out there and doing it.steel and ferro were probibly the the best in a seaway,glass best for mainenance,cored hulls for speed and insalation;the ferro was the fastest over all(60fter.)so what im tring to say is just do it.with a family its importent to have an area the kids can call there oun.good luck and may the wind allways blow from the aft corner.
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Old 12-04-2013, 04:14   #35
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I would consider find the plans you like, have the hull built, tanks, keel, lead, and engine mounts put in then finish it yourself. Steel would be my choice. This allows a yard to provide all the truly safety parts of the boat while you finish it to your likening. Lots of good old hulls out there you can gut and redo...i would not want to go to sea in the first hull I built. Your call, keep us informed...
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Old 12-04-2013, 04:17   #36
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Re: Size Matter

My father spent 6 years building his 52' from mouldings. The idea being we would cruise as a family. Problem was my sister and I grew up. I wanted to race dinghies and offshore, my sister, like my mother, prefered gardening...

Don't let your dream founder on the rocks of time.
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Old 12-04-2013, 06:14   #37
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Re: Size Matter

Quote:
Originally Posted by sestina View Post
My father spent 6 years building his 52' from mouldings. The idea being we would cruise as a family. Problem was my sister and I grew up. I wanted to race dinghies and offshore, my sister, like my mother, prefered gardening...

Don't let your dream founder on the rocks of time.
Really don't want to burst the OPs dreams, but I think this is the big problem. By the time the boat is finished the kids are going to be well on with their lives, and will have their own interests and activities that they want to pursue.

Still, if the building itself is enough reward, then what the heck? Build the boat. If no one wants to sail off around the world when it is done... Well, at least you enjoyed the building. Sell it and build yourself something smaller, that you can enjoy on local lakes.

But I think that's the key point. The building itself has to be enough reward.
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Old 12-04-2013, 06:31   #38
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Re: Size Matter

Again thanks for the advice. Just incase you all don't know I have plans on building a 25ft sailing vessel. We (ie. me and two of my girls) are starting work on a small dinky that me plan to sail just to goof off in. It is a really easy design and can fit in the car almost.
As for any build I will use someones design. Like when I build or reneovate a building I use plans.
I agree there is fun in building and sailing. I mainly want to do it to teach the kids and have fun. HMMM if you don't understand then oh well.
I will not buy someone elses hull. I understand there are some out there but I don't trust someone elses work. Just look at a car, and yout trust it at sixty mph. So you all say buy a piece of S!@# and fix it put everthing you want and then take your family out into the middle of the ocean on it.
Okay so 1/4 inch of fiberglass between you and the bottom of the ocean floor. And you say I am crazy.
I build house to prefection because I don't want the thing to fall when the wind blows I make kitchens and bathrooms that make women mmm happy. I install windows and doors that keep bad air and people out.
If you live in america go watch one of the new home devolopers build you home. Few nails lots of glue. Again you want to raise you family in that.
I WILL DO WHAT I LIKE. and you trust someone else to do what you can't and won't do. Tell me what its like when the sinks or the mast breaks or the engine has to be fixed the uptenth time. Maybe the floor boards rots out six months into is and you step though. Guess thats what you get for 400000usd.
I'll take my chance and YEARS of work and play with kids and wife.
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Old 12-04-2013, 06:44   #39
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pirate Re: Size Matter

Okay... now I'm going to throw something in that goes against the 'I want to' that you stated..
Build yourself a Wharram Tiki 26 and make up a trailer for it... it's a simple and fast cut, stitch and glue design.. very easy to handle and can sail in 20 inches of water... give's you experience working with epoxies and mistakes/poor cuts are easily fixed with some epoxy putty...
it'll get you out there sailing with basic accommodation, minimal maintainance/storage costs coz you trail and sail then take it home... and you'll likely get your money back when you sell.
The black one is my Tiki 21 on her trailer.. the other is my 26..
I used to pitch a 2 man dome tent on the deck of the 21 at anchor as it was a bit coffin'ish inside... the 26 however was much roomier and if you make the deck flat instead of the 'seating/cockit' in the plans you can expand 'Port' accommodation easily..
Just a thought...
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Old 12-04-2013, 07:00   #40
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Re: Size Matter



(Dutch of-course )
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Old 12-04-2013, 10:49   #41
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Re: Size Matter

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Originally Posted by Dreamsailoring View Post
......................... Okay so 1/4 inch of fiberglass between you and the bottom of the ocean floor. And you say I am crazy.
I build house to prefection because I don't want the thing to fall when the wind blows......................
Don't be too upset with what has been some well intended advice. Many boats like my own taper to a thickness of one inch of fiberglass at the portlights and are far thicker at the keel. There are well built production boats and projects that can make them stronger. Certainly, you can build to what you perceive as perfection, but there will always be compromises between quality/expense/strength/performance/weight, space/comfort/storage/safety/tankage and time..etc.

There's no question that you may choose to build your own, but many do see that doing this has it's costs too.
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Old 12-04-2013, 11:11   #42
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Re: Size Matter

I know at least one person who built his own boat, the guy never sailed before he started. he did a spectacular job as far as his construction techniques go.........he is a mechanical engineer. His project was 55' in length made of aluminum. He constructed it in Largo, FL near where he worked.

He spent every free hour doing the construction, no time off for weekends or vacations. His jack stands were mounted into concrete and welded so there would never be any movement while the boat was under construction.

I lost contact with his project after 20+ years although I know he had to launch it unfinished because the lot where he built the boat was sold. The things that were not finished the last time I saw the boat included an engine, inside finish and the rigging.

Today you are determined to build your boat! An admirable goal and I don't mean that in a negative way. But again there are buts. People for the most part always underestimate the cost and the time required to do anything. So the larger the task, the greater miss on both the time and the money required to do the job. I suggest that you put together a serious time line schedule along with a material estimate AND ALLOW FOR INFLATION because your project will take years. Also get as many inputs as possible from others who have built large boats for their personal use. I also recommend serious thoughts to purchasing a large project boat to save time & money that will get you and your family into the water while your health is better than it will be 10-15-20 years from now.

Remember life is short. If your estimate is 10 years it could take 15-20. You will never regain those lost good years. JMHO

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Old 12-04-2013, 11:47   #43
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Re: Size Matter

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Originally Posted by Dreamsailoring View Post
Hello all Thank you for looking an answering.
First I AM GOING TO BUILD MY BOAT.
Sorry I have to be rude about that some people don't understand and there are still gonna be one idiot that does not understand thins love for building and has to make a comment that says " Don't Build Buy"
You're right...I don't understand. I have built 2 from scratch and one from a bare hull after gutting it. I have the experience. So please tell me what I don't understand. Because if you think you will save money, you'll be surprised. Once you have completed just the bare hull (and deck) of a 44 footer, you are 20% finished, probably $30,000 into it and 4 years of part time hard labor, let alone what you are doing to your health.
Most DIY's think that because they build custom, they will have a boat built their way, only to find that their ideas that seemed good at the time didn't work and maybe the Naval Architects were correct after all.

Yours truly, One idiot.
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Old 12-04-2013, 12:05   #44
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Re: Size Matter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamsailoring View Post
I will not buy someone elses hull. I understand there are some out there but I don't trust someone elses work. Just look at a car, and yout trust it at sixty mph. So you all say buy a piece of S!@# and fix it put everthing you want and then take your family out into the middle of the ocean on it.
Okay so 1/4 inch of fiberglass between you and the bottom of the ocean floor. And you say I am crazy.
If by this you are referring to my post then you didn't understand what I was trying to tell you.

I did not say buy someone's homebuilt hull. I should have been more specific. There are many hulls out there that have been projects for many years and they were ordered from factories designed by naval architects and build by professionals. Think about it. Are you going to build a hull as well? You are going to depend on the hull to keep you and your family safe as you state so buy a factory hull that's been a project very cheap and at least start with that much completed.

Please don't read into our posts that any of us is advising you to risk yourself or your family in any way. Most all of us here are safety conscious sailors. Most of us are advising you to not waste time and money doing the things that wasted our time and money and kept us from actually sailing.

kind regards,
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Old 12-04-2013, 12:10   #45
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Re: Size Matter

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Originally Posted by Dreamsailoring View Post
We (ie. me and two of my girls) are starting work on a small dinky that me plan to sail just to goof off in. It is a really easy design and can fit in the car almost.
Great idea!

I just came across this thread and reading it made me think of this free plan available online that would cost peanuts to build with no special tools at all.

Spira International Inc - Boothbay Dory Free Boat Plans

No sweat, couple weeks worth of evening time in the garage and cheap practice toward your larger goal and fun to row around while contemplating your dream.

Good luck in your endeavor.
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