Should I fix or sell my boat?

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Repairing a transom and then hanging an outboard off of it will be quite the job for a novice I'm thinking......

Ellevan,
Don't be afraid, learning/trying will overcome fear of the unknown. I have faith you can do it and it will be stronger than the original since it looked like there was no glass on the inside section for the lower OB bracket bolts.

Really, it's not that hard, even I can do it.

For extra reading here is a link for f/g repairs. It's a little commercial but a start. Search more and when things sound repetitive, then you've searched/read enough and go do it.

Bill O.

[TrentePieds]

Souzag:

Re #88: Exactly! And thanx for that contribution :-) Since Ellevan is new to the game, let's be a little more specific about the particular tools he will need, and about where we are doing the cutting. I take it you mean to cut through the inboard transom skin working from the cockpit, just doing exploratory surgery until he hits solid ply?

Doing that, I would use my little 4 1/2" grinder with a cutting wheel, wearing both mask and goggles, of course. I would also wear a disposable paper coverall :-) I would work outward from the cut-out, in say 2" strips, until I hit bedrock.

THEN comes the tapering. As you say, a 1:12 bevel would be good. Given that the ply is likely to be 3/4", that means a bevel 9" wide. The cut-out is likely to be 12" add 9" twice, plus whatever width has had to be cut out, and you'll be way beyond the width of the foot well. The fore'n'aft bulkheads of the cockpit seats come right to the transom in this boat, so, unless I'm mistaken [which CAN happen :-)] there isn't really room for the conventional repair, here.

But we are on the right track. The biggie here is to ensure the structural integrity of what is not only a transom to keep water out, but also an engine mount that will have to take not only the thrusts of a 15 horse engine working through a quite significant moment arm, but also the racking forces that the heavy-ish engine will impose as the boat bounces around in a seaway! All while selecting a method that minimizes consequent cosmetic work, and most specifically avoids doing violence to the OUTBOARD transom skin. I could see cello-finishing this IF it becomes necessary to cut much of it away, but still...

Time for Ellevan to get out the drafting board and make a dimensioned 3-view scale drawing of the aft end of the cockpit so he can get his head around things before getting out the scalpel :-)

It struck me that this boat may NOT have a propane locker capable of passing survey. If not, NOW is the time to see to that, because there is no better place for such a thing than the aft end of a cockpit seat. If one needs to be built, that project should be integrated with the transom repair.

And Ellevan, be aware that the deeky little 11lb bottles we used to use are getting scarce, and so are filling stations! The future lies with "bottle exchanges" working only with the larger bottles, so if (or when) you have a look at your propane locker, make sure you can accommodate TWO of the bottles that are now carried by the likes of Canadian Tire.

Cheers

TP

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Bill O

Ellevan,
Don't be afraid, learning/trying will overcome fear of the unknown. I have faith you can do it and it will be stronger than the original since it looked like there was no glass on the inside section for the lower OB bracket bolts.

Really, it's not that hard, even I can do it.

For extra reading here is a link for f/g repairs. It's a little commercial but a start. Search more and when things sound repetitive, then you've searched/read enough and go do it.

Bill O.

It's not about being afraid.

It's about the time and effort expended on a $2,500.00 boat

It's all up to the owner though. He might like working on boats more than sailing them or he may just enjoy working with epoxy and fiberglass.....

Btw, has the rest of the boat been checked for rot and/or soft spots?

More fiberglass and epoxy may be needed........

As far as being better than the original, lots of guys have that idea when they start (and sometimes complete) boat repair projects. I've seen some dandy's

Some folks like to make their vehicles "better than original!"

I was cruising around (in my Jeep) the Redneck Riviera (SW Florida, SE Alabama) back in the day and some guy with a beat up van decided it needed air conditioning.

So first he added a Honda generator that he installed in the left rear of the van causing the van to sag a bit on that side.

Then above that he installed a home A/C Unit and epoxied it in. This caused the van to sag more

The van also smoked a bit because the engine had almost had it. I don't know if he fixed that better than original or not. I don't think the generator was smoking though........

[Souzag818]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Souzag:

Re #88: Exactly! And thanx for that contribution :-) Since Ellevan is new to the game, let's be a little more specific about the particular tools he will need, and about where we are doing the cutting. I take it you mean to cut through the inboard transom skin working from the cockpit, just doing exploratory surgery until he hits solid ply?

Doing that, I would use my little 4 1/2" grinder with a cutting wheel, wearing both mask and goggles, of course. I would also wear a disposable paper coverall :-) I would work outward from the cut-out, in say 2" strips, until I hit bedrock.

THEN comes the tapering. As you say, a 1:12 bevel would be good. Given that the ply is likely to be 3/4", that means a bevel 9" wide. The cut-out is likely to be 12" add 9" twice, plus whatever width has had to be cut out, and you'll be way beyond the width of the foot well. The fore'n'aft bulkheads of the cockpit seats come right to the transom in this boat, so, unless I'm mistaken [which CAN happen :-)] there isn't really room for the conventional repair, here.

But we are on the right track. The biggie here is to ensure the structural integrity of what is not only a transom to keep water out, but also an engine mount that will have to take not only the thrusts of a 15 horse engine working through a quite significant moment arm, but also the racking forces that the heavy-ish engine will impose as the boat bounces around in a seaway! All while selecting a method that minimizes consequent cosmetic work, and most specifically avoids doing violence to the OUTBOARD transom skin. I could see cello-finishing this IF it becomes necessary to cut much of it away, but still...

Time for Ellevan to get out the drafting board and make a dimensioned 3-view scale drawing of the aft end of the cockpit so he can get his head around things before getting out the scalpel :-)

It struck me that this boat may NOT have a propane locker capable of passing survey. If not, NOW is the time to see to that, because there is no better place for such a thing than the aft end of a cockpit seat. If one needs to be built, that project should be integrated with the transom repair.

And Ellevan, be aware that the deeky little 11lb bottles we used to use are getting scarce, and so are filling stations! The future lies with "bottle exchanges" working only with the larger bottles, so if (or when) you have a look at your propane locker, make sure you can accommodate TWO of the bottles that are now carried by the likes of Canadian Tire.

Cheers

TP

TP- Everything you wrote is why I would do the repair from the outside instead of inside the cockpit. There's simply not enough room to make a sufficient bevel for both the ply core and F/G layers. Not to mention the easier place to be working. After looking at the pictures from under the cockpit I think the damage goes way beyond what could be repaired from inside the cockpit.

[Souzag818]

Originally Posted by Bill O

Ellevan,
All good advice here. Still not thinking it going to take too much to get the transom done. The longest part will be getting out the rotted wood and prep.

If it isn't too cramped, it may be easier to cut away from the inside, leaving the outer skin intact to avoid doing a lot of cosmetic work. The link suggested by TP (#85) is pretty much what you need to do. A multi tool with a flat cutting blade (like these) to get the main cut out, then the scraping blade to get the residual wood off the outer skin. (the multi tool w/flat cutting blade can be used for the chain plate caulk removal).

While doing f/g repairs isn't too complicated, attention to detail will make a better end product. Since this is your first go at it, there will be a learning curve and may be better to be done inside in a less noticeable place. If you are going to use polyester resin due to cost (vinyl ester or epoxy would be better) for the inside repairs, wear a organic vapor mask to avoid the high concentration of fumes.

From your pics it looks like most of the damage is localized around the bracket. Besides the inside cutting, you have good access from the top to transom cut out this section to selectively cut the wood out, leaving both the fore and aft outside finished skins intact.

Bill O.

Bill- As I stated above, there simply isn't enough room inside the cockpit to do a solid, structurally strong repair. A couple inches on each side of the cutout isn't going to do it. And do you propose just cutting/chiseling away the rotted ply core till good wood, and putting little pieces in with polyester resin? There will be no structural integrity there, just cosmetic. That's the type of repair that I'd be called on to fix after the stressing and flexing of a 15hp engine on it. It's like the difference between a body shop the uses Bondo and one that pounds out damage. They both can look good, but... All of this is why back at #66 I agreed with Cadence when he said Ellevan would be throwing money at it and he'd be better off finding another boat that didn't need this sort of repair...

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by Souzag818

Bill- As I stated above, there simply isn't enough room inside the cockpit to do a solid, structurally strong repair. A couple inches on each side of the cutout isn't going to do it. And do you propose just cutting/chiseling away the rotted ply core till good wood, and putting little pieces in with polyester resin? There will be no structural integrity there, just cosmetic. That's the type of repair that I'd be called on to fix after the stressing and flexing of a 15hp engine on it. It's like the difference between a body shop the uses Bondo and one that pounds out damage. They both can look good, but... All of this is why back at #66 I agreed with Cadence when he said Ellevan would be throwing money at it and he'd be better off finding another boat that didn't need this sort of repair...

I think we are on the same page here and you may have misinterpreted my post. As TP suggested and I agreed was to do the main cut out the wood from the inside (under the cockpit sole) to remove the majority of the wood in the area that Ellevan previously photoed with lower bracket bolts.

The only wood I was suggesting to remove from the cockpit was the little bit he may not be able to get from below. Again reread but I did say VE or epoxy would be better for this job, but who knows what the budget is for the job and PE is cheaper.

Well I'm glad you've stepped in to take over. If you're close enough maybe you can lend a hand so the repairs are done correctly.

Bill O.

[TrentePieds]

Souzag #94:

Bang on. You know it and I know it :-)!

But Ellevan and a bunch of lurkers may not. I think we owe it to them to give them a thorough discussion of why we think what we do. You are making a valuable contribution the technical side and you are giving me "hooks" to hang an expanded discussion on. Bear with me, please, and don't take it amiss, if I go slow and expand on some things you say if I think an expansion will help the novices.

Where do you think my comment about "cello-finishing" was leading ;-0)?

TP

[TrentePieds]

Ellevan:

Here is a "concept" for fixing your transom that is absolutely brilliant - if it works :-)!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLF0V2Wfs3I

http://www.transomrepair.net/images/...y_2011_WEB.pdf

I've never used the product, so I don't know if it works or how easy it is to use. Nevertheless I think it merits "further investigation" because if it DOES work, then it seems to be the answer for you, since you won't have to remove the outer skin on the transom. Their method for cleaning out twixt the skins is downright elegant – if it works :-).

One wonders precisely what is in this stuff. Some kind of slow-curing, slightly expansive casting resin stuffed with fibres, no doubt. While the chemistry of these kinds of things is complex, the concept is simple, so I would be very surprised if the Florida manufacturer of this stuff is the only manufacturer in the word with such a product.

Fifty years ago I did a fair bit of business with Industrial Formulators in Burnaby. Jim Peters who started IF was a bit of an eccentric. Take a fibreglassing problem to Jim, and he'd come up with an answer. One of his products was "ColdCure Epoxy" - miracle stuff at the time. The stuff would cure under water :-)

So look at this video and at the write up, and think about it. If you think it has promise, then get in touch with IF presenting them with this material and ask if they can supply the equivalent.

So now we know that your transom can be fixed, either this, the easy, way, or the old-fashioned way that Souzag is advocating, and that I will support if this avenue of inquiry leads nowhere. We've already established that your rigging “problems” are small potatoes, so now we've arrived at the point where we need to look at the state of your bottom.

If we can establish that there are no insurmountable problems there, the time will have come to fire up the old spreadsheet and establish the estimated cost of getting your boat sail-able, remembering that the “known cost” that you are measuring against, is the disposal cost. $10K was my off-the-cuff estimate for that. If your anticipated repair costs come in at less than that, you should repair the boat and enjoy it. A second possibility is that your anticipated repair costs come in at less than the disposal cost PLUS the acquisition cost of another boat of equal utility to a serviceable Crown 28. In that case the proper financial decision would STILL be to repair and keep. There are bells and whistles we should still take into those calculations, but for now, this is good enuff to give you a feel for where the financial argument is going.

So let's hold further consideration of rig and transom in abeyance while we investigate the state of your bottom :-) As I said early in this conversation, thinking doesn't cost money. So let's do some more thinking.

However, thinking about your bottom does, IMO, require that you take a moisture meter to it, so this is the time to shake free with the coupla hunnert bux to buy such a meter.

TP.

[Ellevan]

TP -
Thank you. I'll read up on this product. One thing that stood out immediately was the $800 dollars he mentioned for the amount of product to fill a small boat's transom, my reaction to which is to want to spend a bit more time doing things the old fashion way, which I'm assuming would cost a lot less. But still worth investigating to see if there's a similar product that's more cost effective.

As for the moisture meter. From what I've read, there seems to be a lot of argument around whether these are worth using for the amateur, or even for the professional. It seems the readings are difficult to decipher. I'm sure there are forum threads on this topic alone.... I'm leaning towards a quick sanding of the entire bottom and then some visual inspection and 'tapping' , especially around through hulls. Thoughts?

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by Ellevan

I will need a head-sail. I don't see any specific dimensions listed on Sailboatdata. Is there somewhere else I could look this up for the Crown? How exact does it need to be? As you can see I have a roller, so it will have to be that type I assume(newbie..). On that note, a Jib? Genoa?

The help I'm receiving on this forum has already gone way beyond my expectations.

It doesnt need to be exact at all. Maybe try find something with a bit of overlap at the mast, but not too much, for general use. I'm thinking 110-125% genoa. I have often used a wire pendent on the bottom of the headail as the waves dont wash the sail much and I can see under it. So whatever your luff length is, you can live with a little less there, maybe 1-2 ft less.

BTW, sailmakers may have the specs for sails on your boat, although it's a bit of an unknown boat. Ask for a quote on a sail and you will get the specs if they have them. I dont know if Crown got the molds from another boat company or actually created them for that boat.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Ellevan

TP -
Thank you. I'll read up on this product. One thing that stood out immediately was the $800 dollars he mentioned for the amount of product to fill a small boat's transom, my reaction to which is to want to spend a bit more time doing things the old fashion way, which I'm assuming would cost a lot less. But still worth investigating to see if there's a similar product that's more cost effective.

As for the moisture meter. From what I've read, there seems to be a lot of argument around whether these are worth using for the amateur, or even for the professional. It seems the readings are difficult to decipher. I'm sure there are forum threads on this topic alone.... I'm leaning towards a quick sanding of the entire bottom and then some visual inspection and 'tapping' , especially around through hulls. Thoughts?

Ellevan, To me pouring something between two skins looks like a half assed solution. JMHO

[TrentePieds]

Ellevan:

Yes – you are absolutely on the right track! Not only is Seacast expensive, but there would also be freight charges from Florida to VI. I also took a dislike to the demonstrator in the video, grumbling to myself about “snake oil salesmen”, but that could be entirely unjustified.

Consideration of Seacast – consideration only, not commitment – is worthwhile because using it would avoid having to remove the outer skin of the transom. IMO there is no way to do an adequate repair going at it from inside the cockpit and from under the cockpit sole. Except if using Seacast, or an equivalent ptoduct, the outer skin needs to be removed and the penalty of having to do cosmetic work will have to be accepted.

In plan view the transom has quite a curve, while in elevation it is rectilinear (in naval architecture those views are called the “half breadth plan” and the “shear plan” respectively). The curve shown in the half breadth plan is enuff that I would not try to use a single sheet of 3/4” ply for interior reinforcement. Assuming that 3/4” is indeed the distance twixt the inner and outer skins, I would laminate the reinforcement from 3 layers of 1/4” ply. I'm sure you know how to do that.

An alternative to using plywood would be to borrow from a technique called strip-planking. Many large ocean-going yachts are constructed using that technique, and I think that would be my choice. To accommodate the curvature I would set the staves vertically and I would get them out on the tablesaw with a slight – very slight – bevel on one side to get a tight glue joint along their edges. The slight ridges that would be the consequence are, of course, removed with a sander once the glue has cured.

Choosing this technique, the outer skin should ideally be removed as one “panel” so that it may be popped back in place on the new reinforcement confining cosmetic work only to the kerf where the panel was cut out. This removal of the panel in one piece may turn out to be the trickiest bit of all :-)

And as for the bottom – again I think you are right. Grinding the muck of the bottom is essentially costless and would have to be done in any event in order to use the moisture meter, so by all means have at it. A decision point will be reached once the bottom is clean, and there is no sense in merely speculating about what you may find. Far better just get down to it and see what's there!

As for through-hulls, they may well be in need of replacement, but that is a really simple job when the boat is on the hard. Time enuff to think about that once the bottom is clean :-)

TP

[Cheechako]

Well, you could cast stuff in there. But not like you have to do that...just go at it. Dig out the bad stuff, replace with good timber, pay attention to making the tiber strengthen it. Epoxy or other glue it in, clamp and let it set up. Leave space on the opening edges/faces to glass over, sand, fill and sand smooth. Paint or gel coat as necessary. Glass work is forgiving and common sense.

[hellosailor]

If you compute the volume of the hollow space (i.e. removing the junk wood from the transom skins) and price out that much of an epoxy, that's your alternate. I don't see that as a miracle product. Any epoxy, with a slow-cure additive to prevent massive heat build up (it can literally boil and smoke when mixed in volume) and then your choice of fibers to add strength (kevlar and aramid fiber is sold for that purpose) and something like vermiculite or cabosil to bulk it up cheaply and keep the cost down. Or no filler, if you can afford it and don't mind the weight.
A lot of folks would prefer not to try guessing "how much fiber and how much filler and how much cure retardant" and they're the market for a pre-mixed product at a higher price.

[Ellevan]

TP -

In all efforts to avoid cutting the outer skin of the transom off(being that I've never done any FG work before...), I'm still considering going at it from the inside. As you can see, there isn't a very thick layer, or even any fiberglass on the inside in some areas, leading me to believe that I am going to loose the shape of the transom if I removed the outer skin and begin removing material that way. I'm thinking of cutting from the inside, under the cockpit, starting small just around the engine mount area and working my way out to discover 'good wood'. Once there(hopefully) I will bevel as much as I can(4" or so) on all sides of what I've removed. If it turns out that nearly the entire thing is toast, I would leave a 2" lip of remaining FG all the way around the bottom, sides, and up against the cockpit floor to bond to, and removed what's left of the rotted plywood between the skins at the edges and from above at the cutout in the pictures. If it's not all rotted, then my repair would be a lot smaller and I'd have plenty of room to bevel all the way around the repair. Back to if it's a much larger area, I would have to probably split the ply into 3 sections, one either side with beveled inside edges to bond the main center piece. Hard to explain. Fast forward to 1:10 on this video to see what I'm getting at.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPrWocX0eMo

Does this make sense? Could you or someone please describe any issues I may have doing the repair this way? Would it not be in my best interest to leave the outer skin in tact? There is quite a bit of room under the cockpit. Not comfortable by any means, but with some planks set up across the shape of the hull and some serious shoulder and forearm workouts, it could be done?

E