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Richard Jordan · 07-02-2012, 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by capn_billl

Sadly that has been my experience as well.

The bottom line though is unless you are buying a brand new boat, the boat will have existing problems, that is why it is being sold.

You buy the best boat you can find, at the best price you can get, and plan on repairing the things that WILL break.

Actually my experience is new boats have the most problems. Best boat to purchase with least problems is one or two years old. By then all the kinks have been worked out and the machinery broken in.

Kettlewell · 07-02-2012, 17:41

I think the bottom line is that you shouldn't expect to learn everything from a broker, which is why you should spend a lot of time crawling over the boat yourself and/or getting a survey depending on your own knowledge and the value of the boat. The broker may simply not know about previous damage that has been repaired--you can't expect one to know everything. And, like all professions, whether it is medicine or trash hauling, there are all sorts of people doing it and with all different skill levels. You have to do your own due diligence.

justwaiting · 07-02-2012, 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean Girl

I listed Ocean Girl with my broker Kent Little @Little Yacht sales, it was two years after IKE. along with the normal contract he also required me to fill out and sign an IKE form, it gave me the opportunity to disclose any damage done during IKE, including flooding, and any repairs.
Kent said the IKE disclosure form was something he had to do because an owner did not relay to him BIG stuff like sinking :-). Some brokers do take their reputation seriously.
Cheers,
Erika

PS
OG didn't get any damage during IKE, just melted lines.

IMHO, Perhaps this is the way to go for purchaser, ask for a declaration of significant matters ie sinking, storm damage and insurance claims. Such a signed declaration would change the issue from misrepresentation to fraud. Negligence (with the association duty of care, standard of duty of care) is difficult to prove; "acts" as opposed to omission have view by courts much more harshly. Incorporating such a declaration in to a sales contract as an essential term and condition of the contract would allow for action in a court under contract as well an action in tort. Furthermore it would leave open the potential for criminal charges. At least it would in OZ

**hummingway** · 07-02-2012, 19:14

The brokers I've dealt with were masters at playing stupid. Actually I'm pretty sure some weren't playing.

It isn't just the brokers though. It's the fellas doing the surveying as well. They get a lot of work from the brokers so everyone just plays along.

Caveat emptor definitely, Caveat venditor not so much.

justwaiting · 07-02-2012, 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by hummingway

The brokers I've dealt with were masters at playing stupid. Actually I'm pretty sure some weren't playing.

It isn't just the brokers though. It's the fellas doing the surveying as well. They get a lot of work from the brokers so everyone just plays along.

Caveat emptor definitely, Caveat venditor not so much.

I agree that it is a case of buyer beware and any waranty to condition should be treat with caution. What i would be seeking would be information that may be a deciding factor befor i spend time and money (survey) on a boat. A seller or brocker may not be qualified to give an opion on the condition of a motor .... but should give information on significant events that may affect the value of a boat. The legal requirement for such disclosure (under statute) varies between jurisdictions and is often weak. It is poinless discussing the ethical and moral obligations as law and justic are not the same thing in any jurisdiction.

Capt Phil · 07-02-2012, 20:30

We should all be responsible for doing our own due diligence, however if the broker or seller knows of deficiencies they should disclose IMO. Hey, Erica... it just popped into my head, does IKE mean the hurricane or I Know Everything? Just kidding.... cheers, Capt Phil... by the way congrats on your nuptuals.

**Ocean Girl** · 22-02-2012, 07:32

:-) he he, I guess I write IKE instead of Ike because of the damage I saw in the aftermath, boy were our butts kicked, thoroughly kicked.

As to the form, it was pretty basic. It asked about any standing water inside, and exterior damage to my knowledge, ect. I had the vessel surveyed after IKE, she received no damage except her lines melted.
E

**Curmudgeon** · 22-02-2012, 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by justwaiting

IMHO, Perhaps this is the way to go for purchaser, ask for a declaration of significant matters ie sinking, storm damage and insurance claims. Such a signed declaration would change the issue from misrepresentation to fraud. Negligence (with the association duty of care, standard of duty of care) is difficult to prove; "acts" as opposed to omission have view by courts much more harshly. Incorporating such a declaration in to a sales contract as an essential term and condition of the contract would allow for action in a court under contract as well an action in tort. Furthermore it would leave open the potential for criminal charges. At least it would in OZ

U.S. law is very similar although the issue of criminal liability would vary from state to state. But no broker (or seller) would sign such a declaration. The practical solution in the U.S. is a survey by a competent surveyor.

The standard U.S. yachtbrokers' purchase and sale agreement has a strong disclaimer of warranties by the seller or the broker (Section 17). Caveat emptor. However, Section 3 provides that the buyer can reject the yacht for ANY reason prior to a specified date. Buyers should make sure to get the survey done well in advance of that date. A buyer can also "conditionally accept" a boat, with a list of repairs, etc. that the buyer wants the seller to make.

**Snore** · 22-02-2012, 13:57

Just came across this thread and boy does it have some good info! Found an older Sabre 34 in Fla that I thought was "it". She had some blisters, but was priced to discount for a bottom job, if I do desired. I went over the boat and asked the broker three times if he knew of any issues.... Nope not to his knowledge. Test ran the engine at the dock, no issues, Did a sea trial and had an oil analysis... No real surprises.

A buddy asked me if the surveyor ran the boat at full throttle. He didn't. So I arranged an engine only sea trial. Turns out that when the engine was run at above 70% she blew smoke. As the off white smoke is coming out and trailing 6' from the transom, the broker is assuring me that it is water vapor. I felt it wasn't, but the "professional" was assuring me otherwise. $200 later for a mechanic (on top of survey and haul) it seems the engine needs major work.

As of this post, the boat is still on YW with the same advertisement that the engine was REBUILT in 2008.

So the phrase "The Company offers the details of this vessel in good faith" depends on what the definition of "good faith".

Sorry if this is a slight hijacking, just needed to vent.

Bill

PS I cannot post the details on the public forum, but feel free to PM me

nqcruisers · 11-05-2012, 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by capn_billl

Sadly that has been my experience as well.

The bottom line though is unless you are buying a brand new boat, the boat will have existing problems, that is why it is being sold.

You buy the best boat you can find, at the best price you can get, and plan on repairing the things that WILL break.

Sorry, Capn Bill, I don't agree that boats are sold because they have problems. Having bought and sold several large cruising boats over a few decades I know personally that our reasons have been to go onto other things. I believe more people sell because they have either finished their "seachange" and want to get back to their "real world", or want a larger/smaller boat. Rarely have I heard of anyone (amongst our wide range of friends and acquaintances) who have sold because their boat had insurmountable problems. But, your experiences may have been different to ours thus giving rise to your opinion to which you are absolutely entitled.

**Curmudgeon** · 11-05-2012, 19:27

The first boat I bought was being sold because the owner had two other boats (both larger). The second boat was being sold because the owner was 85 years old.

Both boats had problems (which I knew up front based on the survey), but that's not why they were being sold.

capn_billl · 14-05-2012, 10:16

Even though that is not the stated reason, everyone who owns a boat has two lists, 1. things that are broke. 2. things that have been successfully repaired; seldom are those two lists identical.

**barnakiel** · 14-05-2012, 14:06

IMHO when the broker does have the knowledge they should disclose IF asked.

b.

Ann T. Cate · 14-05-2012, 19:08

Hi, guys,

It seems like there are two camps here: those who say you're on your own and those who want to offer specific suggestions to help. One of the contributors said no broker would sign a disclosure declaration. Perhaps because it really isn't his job. His job is to represent the seller, who pays him. So, it is the owner/seller who should provide the notarized sworn declaration, via the broker, when asked, as done by Ocean Girl.

Boats are remarkably repairable, and I think the suggestion about getting documentation of what has been done to her from the owner is an excellent one.

The chap in the States suggested that it is the surveyor who should find out what is wrong with the boat, which means what he can find during the survey. Some repairs can be serious, yet will not be apparent. The surveyor may be unfamiliar with the type of boat, so not know its routine difficulties. My point is that the results are uncertain because there are so many variables--I'm sure you can think of many more. Life is uncertain, not even thinking about collusion, kickbacks, or dishonesty. Ultimately, buying a boat is like other life choices: you do what you want and then do your best to cope with whatever happens.

Good luck with it.

Ann Cate, Insatiable II

bobconnie · 14-05-2012, 21:06

You may not like my suggestion, but Find a Surveyer you trust and send him or her to the boat to survey it no matter where it is ! We had ours go to Rio Dluce (spl) to look at and survey a boat for us ! best money I ever spent! saved Connie and I a trip, and wasting our time and money! He found the problems that might have been overlooked by a LOCAL Surveyer! There and back in 3 days ! as I said money well spent, Will continue to use him till we find our next boat ! Just a thought !