Shipping Containers in SF Bay & at Sea

[Polux]

Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff

Really? Shouldnt be too hard to track containers that dont turn up.

Shipping manifest, customs records, loading schedules, weight distribution loading plans..

Probably one of the simplest problems to automate. Even the US demands all flight manifests prior to aircraft departure.

If you placed a $1M fine (pick a number thats sufficiently painful) on any discrepancies. I think we'd see a change in behaviour.
...

Yes I agree with that. The only way to stop this mess is to fine heavily the ones that let containers fall to sea. Then they would be transported in another way and not in a precarious way like this:



This one lost 500 containers.

Regarding the ability to stay afloat for several days, even when empty the Portuguese Navy was asked (just some days ago) by fishermen to take away or sink several containers that were (for several days) on a zone widely used for fishing. They were still there when they found them.

[s/v Beth]

I would hate to run into that red one at night.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff

Really? Shouldnt be too hard to track containers that dont turn up.

Shipping manifest, customs records, loading schedules, weight distribution loading plans..

Probably one of the simplest problems to automate. Even the US demands all flight manifests prior to aircraft departure.

If you placed a $1M fine (pick a number thats sufficiently painful) on any discrepancies. I think we'd see a change in behaviour.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

I think that is dream land. To many variables eg., ships flag, international waters an that is just what first comes to mind. It would be a can of worms.

And who the hell is going to pay for it?

[Strait Shooter]

Originally Posted by Liam Wald

Actually according to the movie promo's.

"It is the story of a solo sailor who was run into by a shipping container".

Gee, I wonder how fast the container was going when it ran into him?



I hated that movie! It was the stupidest thing I have ever seen...

The guy did everything wrong. What an idiot.



No EPIRB!

Trying to plug a 18" hole with a coffee cup full of epoxy and a 1" paint brush.

Sailing on port tack with a hole on the starboard side and standing there watching water flow in.



Why did you bring this up?

Obviously to piss you off?

I've searched but can't find any statistics. Does anyone know of any?

[hellosailor]

"Geez. It's 2015 and we can't secure a container?"
No one has ever said they can't be secured. The issue is economics, not technology.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

"Geez. It's 2015 and we can't secure a container?"
No one has ever said they can't be secured. The issue is economics, not technology.

I'm not pro big business or shipping companies. Securing the cargo is probably the responsibility of the Long Shoremen's Union. Those containers nest and should be locked down? Lord forbid questioning Labor Unions. The whistle blows you go home. I don't want to open up a pissing contest just give it thought as a sailor not as management or union. Why do I care?

[hellosailor]

"Securing the cargo is probably the responsibility of the Long Shoremen's Union. "
Right, call my shop steward. We're shutting down this entire boat, it doesn't have adequate cables to secure the cargo cubes, and since we're responsible for them, we're going to shut down the entire operation until the shipping line refits their vessel.


Uh, you think so?


Longshoreman are not paid to think, they're paid to follow orders and turn a blind eye to anything else. the only time they "shut 'em down" is when they're ordered to go on strike.


But by all means, there is a simple answer. Just get the UN to write a new UNCLOS type treaty regarding the responsibilities for flotsam and jetsam (remember, cargo cubes can be either) and debris at sea. And then get the major shipping powers to all line up and sign it.


Oh, wait, even the US hasn't signed that first big one, have we? Ooopsie.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

"Securing the cargo is probably the responsibility of the Long Shoremen's Union. "
Right, call my shop steward. We're shutting down this entire boat, it doesn't have adequate cables to secure the cargo cubes, and since we're responsible for them, we're going to shut down the entire operation until the shipping line refits their vessel.


Uh, you think so?


Longshoreman are not paid to think, they're paid to follow orders and turn a blind eye to anything else. the only time they "shut 'em down" is when they're ordered to go on strike.


But by all means, there is a simple answer. Just get the UN to write a new UNCLOS type treaty regarding the responsibilities for flotsam and jetsam (remember, cargo cubes can be either) and debris at sea. And then get the major shipping powers to all line up and sign it.


Oh, wait, even the US hasn't signed that first big one, have we? Ooopsie.

Surely you jest. The useless Nations. I'm sure that will really effect the Co.s in Indonesia that flip over an overloaded ferry carrying containers.

And yes there are containers that are a hazed but it isn't going to be major international issue. Maybe, Whale Wars will take it up? And the containers can be research something.

[jimbunyard]

Well maybe we should look at it realistically.

According to the World Shipping Organization, in 2013 there were 120,000,000 containers shipped. So, if you believe the 10,000 number, which is unsubstantiated, then that means that the shipping companies loose roughly .00008 of the total every year.

And keep in mind that the actual number lost is probably ten times less than the 10000 figure.

You can read the WSO report here, form your own opinion.

http://www.worldshipping.org/industr...l_for_Dist.pdf

As far as coming up with a better way of shipping, ain't gonna happen. The infrastructure already in place is massive, and extremely efficient; railroad and highway freight lines are also both heavily invested in their use. Shipping freight by ocean is by far the most economical method, at least if you're talking about energy costs.

As far as I'm concerned, every container ship and container could get raptured up to container ship heaven, the world would probably be a better place, with people making things (and getting paid for it) for use by the people close to them, but somehow I don't think that very likely...

[hellosailor]

Perhaps, if we each just chipped in a dollar, and bought a tow line and a windsurfer and sent one Sudanese pirate out on each windsurfer with each cargo carrier, and told them they could keep whatever went overboard?


The carrot instead of the stick?

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by Jack Verschuur

I couldn't care less who reimburses who in case a container goes overbord, but rather who takes the responsibiluty for a floating container causing damage? Does the insurance on cargo run out when it goes overboard? Is the owner of said container responsible, the person who leased it for his shipping purposes, who?
Every container is identifyable.
There remains a question of culpability, perheaps very difficult when there are no witnesses in the middle of an ocean.

Best,

Jack.

Well, you have a point, but it also has to be asked, 'If you hit a car broken down on the side of the road, is the owner of the car you hit responsible?'

Somehow, most first world inhabitants seem to have forgotten that there are no guaranties in life or for any of the endeavors involved in executing it. Sometimes the responsibility is ones' own, and sometimes it's just the way things happen; there is no so called 'culpability'. It seems an affluence derived affliction that may someday be adjusted (returned to the norm?)....

As a reminder, just for grins, let's say that 10,000 forty foot containers are lost a year. A 40 footer is 8 ft wide, let's say it's floating a little cockeyed
so it takes up 400 square feet of ocean surface (40x8=320). So 10,000 of them take up 4,000,000 square feet of ocean. There are 27,848,400 square feet per square mile of ocean. There are roughly 150 million square miles of ocean (4x3.14x4000x4000x.75) so that adds up to 4,177,260,000,000,000 square feet of ocean (i.e. 4 quadrillion, give or take).

Cancel out all those zeros, and the total area taken by all 10,000 containers combined is one billionth of the total area of the ocean. Divide that by 10,000 and I hope everyone can sleep at night.

[Jack Verschuur]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

Well, you have a point, but it also has to be asked, 'If you hit a car broken down on the side of the road, is the owner of the car you hit responsible?'

Somehow, most first world inhabitants seem to have forgotten that there are no guaranties in life or for any of the endeavors involved in executing it. Sometimes the responsibility is ones' own, and sometimes it's just the way things happen; there is no so called 'culpability'. It seems an affluence derived affliction that may someday be adjusted (returned to the norm?)....

As a reminder, just for grins, let's say that 10,000 forty foot containers are lost a year. A 40 footer is 8 ft wide, let's say it's floating a little cockeyed
so it takes up 400 square feet of ocean surface (40x8=320). So 10,000 of them take up 4,000,000 square feet of ocean. There are 27,848,400 square feet per square mile of ocean. There are roughly 150 million square miles of ocean (4x3.14x4000x4000x.75) so that adds up to 4,177,260,000,000,000 square feet of ocean (i.e. 4 quadrillion, give or take).

Cancel out all those zeros, and the total area taken by all 10,000 containers combined is one billionth of the total area of the ocean. Divide that by 10,000 and I hope everyone can sleep at night.

Of course you're right in saying that some responsibility is ones' own in executing life, but there are boundaries to that too. Fact is though, that legislation differs from country to country, and most cargo-vessels operate under flags that allow them the least restrictions, so perhaps my question bears no relation to reality at large.

If your math is right, and I have no reason to doubt it, we should indeed stop worrying so much about the 'problem'. Chance of hitting one of these becomes even more minimal if you take into account that containers will sink at some point, most perhaps quite quickly, and the number 10.000 can be divided by a factor X suggesting that at no point in time there are more than 1.000 more or less floating containers around.

Best,

Jack.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

Well, you have a point, but it also has to be asked, 'If you hit a car broken down on the side of the road, is the owner of the car you hit responsible?'

Somehow, most first world inhabitants seem to have forgotten that there are no guaranties in life or for any of the endeavors involved in executing it. Sometimes the responsibility is ones' own, and sometimes it's just the way things happen; there is no so called 'culpability'. It seems an affluence derived affliction that may someday be adjusted (returned to the norm?)....

As a reminder, just for grins, let's say that 10,000 forty foot containers are lost a year. A 40 footer is 8 ft wide, let's say it's floating a little cockeyed
so it takes up 400 square feet of ocean surface (40x8=320). So 10,000 of them take up 4,000,000 square feet of ocean. There are 27,848,400 square feet per square mile of ocean. There are roughly 150 million square miles of ocean (4x3.14x4000x4000x.75) so that adds up to 4,177,260,000,000,000 square feet of ocean (i.e. 4 quadrillion, give or take).

Cancel out all those zeros, and the total area taken by all 10,000 containers combined is one billionth of the total area of the ocean. Divide that by 10,000 and I hope everyone can sleep at night.

yeah but my boat also fills about 250 sq. feet and then we have to consider the velocity it is traveling - let's see, divide by 1 billion, carry the nine, move the decimal point 2 over, carry the 9 again, wait! do I multiply or divide?

Oh hell - maybe I'll just lie awake at night and quiver

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by carstenb

yeah but my boat also fills about 250 sq. feet and then we have to consider the velocity it is traveling - let's see, divide by 1 billion, carry the nine, move the decimal point 2 over, carry the 9 again, wait! do I multiply or divide?

Oh hell - maybe I'll just lie awake at night and quiver

Carsten, He makes a good point about the odds so sleep well. I can't count that many zeros. I'll give him credit for taking the time to noodle it out.

[hellosailor]

I don;t know, guys. I'm not licensed to practice statistics across state lines, but the way I figure it is:
Either I WILL hit a cargo cube, or
I WON'T hit a cargo cube.


And that makes it 50-50, either I hit one or I don't.


The odds only change if you try to figure which result amuses Poseidon more, and whether you can win his favor by placing a larger dowry (the gold coin) under your mast.