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Old 15-12-2015, 10:41   #16
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Re: Shipping Containers in SF Bay & at Sea

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Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff View Post
Maybe if we fined or forced the vessels to recover the containers we might not have to read articles mentioning poorly attached containers.

Geez. It's 2015 and we can't secure a container?

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Somehow that seems unenforceable. And I doubt they want them to go overboard, I'm sure, that comes off the financial bottom line. The container is cheap the cargo may not be. Even loading them is about a science. The control panel onboard for load distribution is extensive.

Maybe I'm just ref. companies like Maersk not some off the wall co.?
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Old 15-12-2015, 10:49   #17
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Re: Shipping Containers in SF Bay & at Sea

Just when the memory was fading....

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Robert Redford would agree containers can be a problem.
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Old 15-12-2015, 11:58   #18
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Re: Shipping Containers in SF Bay & at Sea

OK maybe this is crazy, feel free to let me know if it is, or maybe this idea is already out there, but how about a small AIS transmitter that releases and is attached by a tether when submerged and has about a month of battery power? All the containers above deck level would have them clipped on.
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Old 15-12-2015, 12:02   #19
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Re: Shipping Containers in SF Bay & at Sea

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OK maybe this is crazy, feel free to let me know if it is, or maybe this idea is already out there, but how about a small AIS transmitter that releases and is attached by a tether when submerged and has about a month of battery power? All the containers above deck level would have them clipped on.
Like so many other great ideas - would never happen in our lifetime.
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Old 15-12-2015, 12:11   #20
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Re: Shipping Containers in SF Bay & at Sea

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Like so many other great ideas - would never happen in our lifetime.
Might be a good tracking devise when the container is on a semi.
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Old 15-12-2015, 12:13   #21
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Re: Shipping Containers in SF Bay & at Sea

Have been shipping cargo around the world for over twenty years in containers. They are not water/air tight and will fill with water rather quickly if the fall off the boat, refers and other specialty containers excepted.

Unless the container is filled with a buoyant cargo (rubber duckies?) it will sink as soon as it fills with water. A container full of rubber duckies, tennis balls, or similae could float for months or as long as it takes for the contents to waterlog.

If you happen to hit a semi floating container it will be pretty much like hitting a reef or a rock. The container is not going to move enough to absorb a significant bit of the impact force. Could be a bad day depending on where your hull hit's the container.
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Old 16-12-2015, 05:03   #22
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Re: Shipping Containers in SF Bay & at Sea

I have no idea on how long the typical containers float, but suspect many for a long,long time, and the top of the container will most likely be right at the waters surface, most likely totally unseen even with a sharp lookout. I think the problem is bad enough that I decided as a solo sailer attempting a multi year circumnavigation, that a steel hull is the only reasonable choice. A fiberglass or wood hull colliding with the rather sharp edges of a rather immobile container at 7 knots would most likely sink in minutes. Steel will most likely just have a large dent.
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Old 16-12-2015, 06:07   #23
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Re: Shipping Containers in SF Bay & at Sea

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Somehow that seems unenforceable. And I doubt they want them to go overboard, I'm sure, that comes off the financial bottom line. The container is cheap the cargo may not be. Even loading them is about a science. The control panel onboard for load distribution is extensive.

Maybe I'm just ref. companies like Maersk not some off the wall co.?
Really? Shouldnt be too hard to track containers that dont turn up.

Shipping manifest, customs records, loading schedules, weight distribution loading plans..

Probably one of the simplest problems to automate. Even the US demands all flight manifests prior to aircraft departure.

If you placed a $1M fine (pick a number thats sufficiently painful) on any discrepancies. I think we'd see a change in behaviour.

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Old 16-12-2015, 06:25   #24
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Re: Shipping Containers in SF Bay & at Sea

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Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff View Post
Really? Shouldnt be too hard to track containers that dont turn up.

Shipping manifest, customs records, loading schedules, weight distribution loading plans..

Probably one of the simplest problems to automate. Even the US demands all flight manifests prior to aircraft departure.

If you placed a $1M fine (pick a number thats sufficiently painful) on any discrepancies. I think we'd see a change in behaviour.

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There is already a program in place, at least for shipments to the US. CBP requires you submit to them ISF documents (Importer Security Filing) prior to shipment of any ocean cargo to the US. ISF includes full details of the shipment: origin, shipper, destination, consignee, carrier, cargo, hazmat information, quantity, weight.

Failure to file ISF before the shipment sails can result in fines of several thousand dollars. Losing a container overboard is no charge.
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Old 16-12-2015, 06:58   #25
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Re: Shipping Containers in SF Bay & at Sea

There should be fine for losing a container overboard, they should check the off loaded container count with the on loaded count and if it doesn't match then there is a stiff fine for polluting the oceans, make the fine stiff enough and they probably won't lose very many.
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Old 16-12-2015, 07:36   #26
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Re: Shipping Containers in SF Bay & at Sea

Thats it, I think you need to fine them for littering. If I can get a 400 dollar fine for a sales slip out of the back of my pickup, then they ought to get a big one for a 40 ft container. Besides my sales slip doesn't give anyone a flat tire.

But who is going to police it? As you can tell, the USCG is not hip to the idea.

Maybe it can be a community pride thing, and you will pass a buoy saying:
"This part of the ocean is cleaned by Maresk shipping"
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Old 16-12-2015, 09:05   #27
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Re: Shipping Containers in SF Bay & at Sea

You basically have an international insurance company that polices the whole thing, if your shipment doesn't make it to port, you file a claim, and the shipper pays the claim and in addition pays a hefty fine for littering too. Some of the fine goes to the insurance company for overseeing the whole thing and the rest goes to some good cause to clean up the oceans.
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Old 16-12-2015, 09:35   #28
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Re: Shipping Containers in SF Bay & at Sea

You guys know the cliche (truth) about how "there are a different set of laws for people with lots & lots of money, vs. the average guy". Well, guess who the shipping companies, & more significantly, their bosses, are in this equation?

To put it bluntly, sailors are a miniscule lobbying group at best. So, for us to get legislation created such that it costs more for big business to clean up their own messes, vs. how much they write off from losing a "few" shipping containers, is kind of an uphill battle, IMO.

People are Finally starting to wake up, regarding the condition of the oceans (& other ecosystems). Now that they're half (or further) dead. But if (via some miracle) you could get the general populace to spend 5% of the energy, & money on helping out the planet (& thus their grandchildren) that they do on Christmas shopping...


I think you see where I'm heading.
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Old 16-12-2015, 09:49   #29
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Re: Shipping Containers in SF Bay & at Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff View Post
Maybe if we fined or forced the vessels to recover the containers we might not have to read articles mentioning poorly attached containers.

Geez. It's 2015 and we can't secure a container?

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Fined? OK maybe, but you know who winds up paying for that...

Recovering? How? Given the conditions that usually cause containers to be lost, I find it hard to believe that anyone could be expected to recover a loose container, least of all from the deck of a container ship. Containers are designed to be picked up in one specific manner, and that is not from the sea surface.



Quote:
Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff View Post
Really? Shouldnt be too hard to track containers that dont turn up.

Shipping manifest, customs records, loading schedules, weight distribution loading plans..

Probably one of the simplest problems to automate. Even the US demands all flight manifests prior to aircraft departure.

If you placed a $1M fine (pick a number thats sufficiently painful) on any discrepancies. I think we'd see a change in behaviour.

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You can be very sure that ship masters and shipping companies know when they've lost a container, and/or how many. How long would any stay in business if they didn't?

Once a container goes over, it's a problem for the insurance company, the consigner and the consignee, and, if the container floats, anyone who is unlucky enough to encounter it.
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Old 16-12-2015, 10:24   #30
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Re: Shipping Containers in SF Bay & at Sea

I couldn't care less who reimburses who in case a container goes overbord, but rather who takes the responsibiluty for a floating container causing damage? Does the insurance on cargo run out when it goes overboard? Is the owner of said container responsible, the person who leased it for his shipping purposes, who?
Every container is identifyable.
There remains a question of culpability, perheaps very difficult when there are no witnesses in the middle of an ocean.

Best,

Jack.
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