Seller doesn't allow sea trial because the boat is not insure

[JPA Cate]

^^^^

Nice analysis, Island Time 025.

The low ballast ratio will mean she will not sail well, and is likely to be very tender.

A while back, someone here on CF posted the concept that, in buying older boats, the main considerations were rig, sails, and engine. Two of the 3 must be excellent, and you plan to replace the other one. It is a simplistic idea, but seems a reasonable rule of thumb to me. To the boat in question, add the low ballast ratio and the best you can do to address that is make up a bunch of lead bricks to lay in the bilge, and pour epoxy over. It is a potentially toxic activity to make them, not recommended for most amateurs.



Ann

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

^^^^

Nice analysis, Island Time 025.

The low ballast ratio will mean she will not sail well, and is likely to be very tender.

A while back, someone here on CF posted the concept that, in buying older boats, the main considerations were rig, sails, and engine. Two of the 3 must be excellent, and you plan to replace the other one. It is a simplistic idea, but seems a reasonable rule of thumb to me. To the boat in question, add the low ballast ratio and the best you can do to address that is make up a bunch of lead bricks to lay in the bilge, and pour epoxy over. It is a potentially toxic activity to make them, not recommended for most amateurs.



Ann

Ann, a number of people seem to be fixated on batteries what better ballast.

[valgel]

Boats need to be insured to be in a California Marina. Also I think boats this age will need an out of the water, and mechanical survey before any insurance can be issued. I would also get a rig survey done. So you might as well get it done for piece of mind. Anytime you buy a boat (Break Out Another Thousand ) no matter the original price be prepared to put money into her. If the seller refuses then I would pass.

[leftbrainstuff]

It is up to the seller to ready the vessel. This includes sea trial, survey, haulout, rigging inspection and whatever else the seller and potential buyer agree. The potential buyer or seller may pay some or all of the costs.

Are you paying a deposit or funding an escrow account? If not the buyer might be reluctant to allow anything other than a cursory inspection.

It's probably also an indication of other potential issues. Like lack of maintenance, out of documentation etc.

Are you using a broker or not? You should expect your broker to coordinate these activities.

How badly does he want to sell?



sv Sedoza Sakona Liberty 458 hull 12

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by valgel

Boats need to be insured to be in a California Marina. Also I think boats this age will need an out of the water, and mechanical survey before any insurance can be issued. I would also get a rig survey done. So you might as well get it done for piece of mind. Anytime you buy a boat (Break Out Another Thousand ) no matter the original price be prepared to put money into her. If the seller refuses then I would pass.

I would imagine it is only liability that is required.

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by valgel

Boats need to be insured to be in a California Marina. Also I think boats this age will need an out of the water, and mechanical survey before any insurance can be issued. I would also get a rig survey done. So you might as well get it done for piece of mind. Anytime you buy a boat (Break Out Another Thousand ) no matter the original price be prepared to put money into her. If the seller refuses then I would pass.

Good advice. I would also have a mechanic check out the diesel. A repower runs about $15,000 & can turn a good deal into a bad one pretty quick.

[Island Time O25]

This is just a general "thinking aloud" type of a post.

IMO unless one can afford a new or very recent vessel AND can afford hired help to repair/maintain it one should start small, say 20-25 feet, learn as much as one can about the systems, the potential pitfalls, etc. and in 2-3 years move up to the "real" long term type of a vessel. Thus while looking for that more permanent boat one will already have a good feel whether or not it is a POS or a diamond in the rough. And of course if one thinks the latter is found then one should still hire a competent (hopefully) surveyor and have as many marine pro friends/buddies as one has to help with the investigation of that potential buy.

Personally I don't think going from zero or little knowledge to a 30+ year old boat (no mater how good of a condition she's still in) without the intervening learning curve is a wise idea. It's like a person who never or seldom dated marrying someone after one date. Of course one may get lucky but what are the chances?

[SV THIRD DAY]

It's always interesting to see what people expect when buying a $15K boat off Craigslist and how others will give them advice as if they are buying a $275K boat through a broker.

The myth that if only you get a survey and proper sea trial it will protect you from unknown costs and problems is the lie all new boat buyers tell themselves, but experience and real life knows better.

Lets use a little real life two week old example:
We just bought a Newport 33 for $11K off Craigslist. No survey. No sea Trial. Ran the motor in forward and reverse for an hour in the slip as I went through every locker, opened/closed every through hull and gave her the best "survey" I could having cruised and lived aboard for 10yrs.
We had enough experience to know what the boat was, how to give it a good in slip check-out and deal was done and my 19yr old daughter bought her first boat.

Now since then, I just wrote a check for $4250 for all new standing and running rigging, life lines and new Bow, Stern, Anchor and Steaming lights to be installed by rigger in MDR. There was no mystery that this work needed to be done and that cost was already in my head at the asking price. My new Force 10 oven shows up today, new propane lines, alarm, and Solenoid. So there's another $2K. I knew the raw water pump needed work, and rebuild kit was $60, but time is money so I bought a new one for $212. It's always easier to rip out and replace a marine head rather than clean it, so there's another $300 in head and hoses. New batteries and cables adds in $400.

So our $11K boat instantly turned into a $18,620...oh...but lets not forget the $990 in sales tax so bingo...$19,610.

Now why tell this story?
Why does it matter to this discussion?
Easy...because if you don't understand the REAL costs in buying and fixing up an older boat, then you should and a sea trial is going to be the least of your worries if you don't understand just how much it can cost to bring an older boat back!

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

^^^^

Nice analysis, Island Time 025.

The low ballast ratio will mean she will not sail well, and is likely to be very tender.

A while back, someone here on CF posted the concept that, in buying older boats, the main considerations were rig, sails, and engine. Two of the 3 must be excellent, and you plan to replace the other one. It is a simplistic idea, but seems a reasonable rule of thumb to me. To the boat in question, add the low ballast ratio and the best you can do to address that is make up a bunch of lead bricks to lay in the bilge, and pour epoxy over. It is a potentially toxic activity to make them, not recommended for most amateurs.



Ann

Yes! and I am one who has a tippy boat, but the design is a good one IMO! Not sure if the OP is still here but the more I look at this design specs the less I like it. Not only the low ballast ratio, but how low the ballast actually is is important to my sensibilities. This one, not much lead and not too low. And if you have to start laying in bricks... ugh, I remember the days of cooking lead for dive weights... I wonder how many brain cells I lost. Plus, you can't put the ballast low enough to really be what you need.
Keep looking.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

It's always interesting to see what people expect when buying a $15K boat off Craigslist and how others will give them advice as if they are buying a $275K boat through a broker.

The myth that if only you get a survey and proper sea trial it will protect you from unknown costs and problems is the lie all new boat buyers tell themselves, but experience and real life knows better.

Lets use a little real life two week old example:
We just bought a Newport 33 for $11K off Craigslist. No survey. No sea Trial. Ran the motor in forward and reverse for an hour in the slip as I went through every locker, opened/closed every through hull and gave her the best "survey" I could having cruised and lived aboard for 10yrs.
We had enough experience to know what the boat was, how to give it a good in slip check-out and deal was done and my 19yr old daughter bought her first boat.

Now since then, I just wrote a check for $4250 for all new standing and running rigging, life lines and new Bow, Stern, Anchor and Steaming lights to be installed by rigger in MDR. There was no mystery that this work needed to be done and that cost was already in my head at the asking price. My new Force 10 oven shows up today, new propane lines, alarm, and Solenoid. So there's another $2K. I knew the raw water pump needed work, and rebuild kit was $60, but time is money so I bought a new one for $212. It's always easier to rip out and replace a marine head rather than clean it, so there's another $300 in head and hoses. New batteries and cables adds in $400.

So our $11K boat instantly turned into a $18,620...oh...but lets not forget the $990 in sales tax so bingo...$19,610.

Now why tell this story?
Why does it matter to this discussion?
Easy...because if you don't understand the REAL costs in buying and fixing up an older boat, then you should and a sea trial is going to be the least of your worries if you don't understand just how much it can cost to bring an older boat back!

+1 Bingo! You nailed it!

[cpt_757]

Originally Posted by rickykngo

Please let us know what you think afterward.

Could see exterior assuming right boat, could not go close to look, could not see underwater area.
It's looked fine but has to test run otherwise can't say anything.

[jrau18]

If my boat were for sale right now, the transmission problems that started two weeks ago would only show up during a sea trial. At the dock, I could easily put it in gear at idle (works great) or full speed (also works great ). The potential buyer would never know that it needs a transmission overhaul (scheduled to start next week in my case) unless they took it out for sea trials at a variety of speeds.

Osmosis repairs can be 10 to 30k, depending on boat size and location, and can only be detected out of the water.

Some structural problems can only been see out of water or under load.

Unless it's almost free, get a proper survey and sea trail. If that isn't an option, make a very low ball offer if it fits your acceptable level of risk, otherwise walk away.

While I would never try to sell my boat with serious hidden (and known) issues, not everybody is so scrupulous. Equally important, not everybody knows everything about their boat. There could be tens of thousands of dollars in needed repairs he has no idea are there waiting to sink or strand the boat.

[Thumbs Up]

You guys still talking about this...op is long gone...The guy wants to sell it as is where is. What's the problem with that. He has probably never been out on it.

[jkindredpdx]

Someone probably said this, but i didn't have the time to wade through all the replies. Why don't you buy a temporary insurance policy just for the sea trial and survey?

[Valmika]

It is back on CL today