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Old 02-08-2015, 09:13   #121
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

The jr's sail stresses are taken by the bolt ropes and battens; there are plenty of instances where panels were torn, even completely blown out, and the boat kept sailing. The Chinese used to repurpose old rice-straw mats, hardly a durable material. It's been refined over a couple of thousand years...in a way, we're developing square wheels and will eventually end up much closer to their results. Look at a bird's wings and consider the amazing design in those, and the similar principles used on the jr.

A pity we don't have self-repairing boats, but that would probably also involve self-reproducing boats. This would make interesting viewing in marinas and anchorages. Maybe one day with nano-tech. In the meantime, my money is on 3d printers that print whole hulls. Some guys in Amsterdam are printing a steel bridge across a canal. Perhaps they've succeeded in printing one of those special cafes. That's for a different thread, methinks...
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Old 02-08-2015, 10:08   #122
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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Originally Posted by Delancey View Post
Glad to see you rationalize your own boat purchase however you like. I am sure you will be pleased with whatever you end up with. Happy sailing!
I don't have a boat so have no prejudice and am not trying to rationalise anything other than a common sense economic argument of the cost/performance ratio being better for a boat with a stayed mast.

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As far as airplanes go, while I concede that there are plenty of older strut wing aircraft still out there flying, they are hardly the "norm" and really fewer and fewer are built every year.
Strutted aircraft are quite the norm especially if you want low stall speed and need a large surface area. Most have 3 appendages underneath for landing lets not forget so the addition of two struts in exchange for a saving a heap of cash is not lost on people. The LSA category for example only permits a maximum speed of 120 knots anyway and the treacle factor can be mitigated by flying higher so is being overly slippery justified in the quest to save a few quid on fuel versus the extra up front capital cost of some advanced engineered slick aircraft. Same logic applies to cruising yachts. None are trying to break speed records so what is the gain for this extra cash?

Sure. One day the choice of a non strutted aircraft for recreation may be an academic one because the choice may not exist due to material and construction costs being reduced and becoming common place but that time has not arrived and it is the same economic argument for boats except there is even a less compelling reason to change because the wind is free.

No matter what free standing design you put on the table at this moment in time it can be trumped by a non free standing design for the same cost. Increased length or lighter hull material.. or what ever really. This is not me hating free standing masts because I like them a lot. This is just me saying they don't make economic sense as a production boat and are really for the disciples of technology but membership to that technology club comes at a premium cost which is hard to justify in the production sector when we apply a normal cost/performance benchmark ratios.

This is why they are not so popular and they won’t be popular for a long time yet to come. They look fine to the eye. This is not the issue - they are simply not cost efficient. IMHO.
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Old 02-08-2015, 10:15   #123
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

How can a free standing mast be more expensive than stayed, both in initial and lifetime cost? One is a simple cantilever beam, the other is a complex truss.
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Old 02-08-2015, 10:52   #124
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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Originally Posted by micah719 View Post
How can a free standing mast be more expensive than stayed, both in initial and lifetime cost? One is a simple cantilever beam, the other is a complex truss.
Yeah, I don't get this reasoning either. My 1988 boat was quite reasonably priced (compared to a newer Wylie) and the upgrades I've put into it were all things that would go into a boat with stays, and except for the headstay, I didn't have to upgrade the rigging.

As to sails being more expensive because of the boat, I decided not to go with Dacron because I wanted something a little more performance oriented. It is a membrane sail made by Quantum (https://www.quantumsails.com/sails/C...MainSails.aspx) and so I paid more than a basic cruising sail, but not much more than what I hear others have paid for their mainsails. However, there are 5 full length battens so that had to increase the price a bit.

I've always heard Freedoms are for a niche market. There are plenty of people out there who'd never consider one. That's OK by me. I've never followed the pack, and I am very happy; but it would be more helpful for those considering these boats to not spread misinformation because there's relatively little out there on their merits. Everyone I know who owns a Freedom or Wylie or Alerion, absolutely LOVE their boats, and everyone who comes on my boat (including long-time racers/sailors) are impressed with its performance. That is not the case with other friends' boats, but then again, there are more of those "other" boats than these freaky unstayed things so a simple law of averages would account for that
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Old 02-08-2015, 10:56   #125
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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Originally Posted by Cormorant View Post
I'm late to this thread but wanted to post a couple pics of our 31-foot lug-rigged cat yawl. It's a Jim Michalak design, called "Cormorant." Not really a blue water boat, but trailerable, and a tremendously enjoyable coastal cruiser and gunkholer. It has served our family of four very well for over a decade now, including one trip to the Exumas.

Note that the unstayed mast is in a tabernacle for ease of raising and lowering for trailering. Works great for shooting under low bridges, too.

The mast is hollow birdsmouth, about 6" diameter at the base, and most of the way up, then a slight taper at the top. (Lugsails bear more force near the top of the mast and don't like a finely tapered bendy mast.) Can be raised by one person just walking it up, and lowered with no hands at all, just a bit of snubbing friction on the line at the base.

Not great to windward, but excellent in so many other ways. . . .
Thanks for posting the photos and information about your interesting and unusual boat. I enjoyed seeing the photos. You mentioned that it is not a blue water boat but I don't think all boats are Bluewater boats. So that does not bother me a bit. There are many different ways to enjoy sailing in many different places to enjoy sailing. It is good to see unusual designs like your Boat. I also like the idea of the tabernacle mast and can see the practicality of that depending upon where you sale for boat. I also like the idea of the tabernacle mast and can see the practicality of that depending upon where you sail.

Typos due to dictation software.
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Old 02-08-2015, 10:57   #126
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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Originally Posted by daletournier View Post
I've actually taken the asymmetrical of the boat as the reacher is alot more versatile than it looks. I've got an article somewhere about the light wind traveler thing, I'll see if I can dig it up.
I would be very interested in this information!
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Old 02-08-2015, 11:04   #127
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

There's one interesting rig we haven't covered yet:

Pdf warning!
http://www.junkrigassociation.org/Re...2020110722.pdf

Wikipedia warning!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ljungstrom_rig
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Old 02-08-2015, 11:04   #128
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Quote:
Originally Posted by gamayun View Post
Yeah, I don't get this reasoning either. My 1988 boat was quite reasonably priced (compared to a newer Wylie) and the upgrades I've put into it were all things that would go into a boat with stays, and except for the headstay, I didn't have to upgrade the rigging.

As to sails being more expensive because of the boat, I decided not to go with Dacron because I wanted something a little more performance oriented. It is a membrane sail made by Quantum (https://www.quantumsails.com/sails/C...MainSails.aspx) and so I paid more than a basic cruising sail, but not much more than what I hear others have paid for their mainsails. However, there are 5 full length battens so that had to increase the price a bit.

I've always heard Freedoms are for a niche market. There are plenty of people out there who'd never consider one. That's OK by me. I've never followed the pack, and I am very happy; but it would be more helpful for those considering these boats to not spread misinformation because there's relatively little out there on their merits. Everyone I know who owns a Freedom or Wylie or Alerion, absolutely LOVE their boats, and everyone who comes on my boat (including long-time racers/sailors) are impressed with its performance. That is not the case with other friends' boats, but then again, there are more of those "other" boats than these freaky unstayed things so a simple law of averages would account for that
Well said and good post!

Your choice of sail material is very understandable, given your goals and enjoyment of racing.

I would do the same.

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Old 02-08-2015, 11:08   #129
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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Is Dacron a special material that has an exotic weave? I've no idea what you're talking about... The mainsail on the photos I posted is over 12 years old. The mizzen is about 2 years old.


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Well.. There is Dracon cheap and then there is Dracon expensive. I think there is more than a few quid difference per square yard for cloth that is conducive to optimising a mast that is able to bend.

As I said I can't really remember and would have to find the designer notes I read on this subject. It talked about using a laminated cloth as the preferred option on a free standing mast.
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Old 02-08-2015, 11:20   #130
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

I am more than happy to agree to disagree but find it a bit off-putting to hear you speak in absolute terms when it serves your purpose on the one hand, and then bend things to suit your argument when absolutes don't on the other. Especially during a discussion that wasn't really an argument until you started to speak in absolute terms.

The photo I posted is from the annual
EAA fly-in which I have attended and which is pretty much the be-all-end-all for recreational aircraft in the USA. Fully half the airplanes visible are under wings and of the over wings, I can garuntee they don't all have struts which would make strut wings a minority. So I guess we have different ideas about what normal is as well.

I am of the opinion that prejudicial thinking is a more likely explaination as to why there aren't more free standing rigs rigs out there and quite frankly I think your assertion that cost is the main factor just doesn't hold water, particularly when it is based on an unsubstantiated guesstimate that defines common sense.
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Old 02-08-2015, 12:03   #131
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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Well.. There is Dracon cheap and then there is Dracon expensive. I think there is more than a few quid difference per square yard for cloth that is conducive to optimising a mast that is able to bend.



As I said I can't really remember and would have to find the designer notes I read on this subject. It talked about using a laminated cloth as the preferred option on a free standing mast.

I think any seller of sails will generally suggest more performance can be gained by using a laminated cloth rather than Dacron. I'm not a sailmaker so I won't go any deeper into the merits of sail materials. I have Dacron sails and they work fine for my purposes. They were made by Haarstick (now Quantum) who has likely made more sails for Freedoms than anyone else. After much discussion with Haarstick it was clear that Dacron fit the parameters that I set.


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Old 02-08-2015, 12:43   #132
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

There is no one more cost-conscious than me when comparing sailboats. Initial price and through-life cost are best with a short waterline (berthing fees, annual haul-out and yard storage charges, antifoul paint) so a short beamy cruising boat tends to save us money (my one caveat is it must meet offshore stability requirements). With rigs, I doubt anything comes close to JR in reducing costs for cruisers. Then if we can save on insurance and still feel confident of not losing out due to some minor fitting failure, potential savings when we head offshore are huge. All the economics points me towards freestanding rig - the reason there aren't so many around cannot be due to economics. I'm convinced the racing imperative of squeezing out the last fraction of a knot to windward is more likely the cause, which then sets the trend for cruisers also.
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Old 02-08-2015, 12:51   #133
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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Originally Posted by Delancey View Post
I am more than happy to agree to disagree but find it a bit off-putting to hear you speak in absolute terms when it serves your purpose on the one hand, and then bend things to suit your argument when absolutes don't on the other. Especially during a discussion that wasn't really an argument until you started to speak in absolute terms.

The photo I posted is from the annual
EAA fly-in which I have attended and which is pretty much the be-all-end-all for recreational aircraft in the USA. Fully half the airplanes visible are under wings and of the over wings, I can garuntee they don't all have struts which would make strut wings a minority. So I guess we have different ideas about what normal is as well.

I am of the opinion that prejudicial thinking is a more likely explaination as to why there aren't more free standing rigs rigs out there and quite frankly I think your assertion that cost is the main factor just doesn't hold water, particularly when it is based on an unsubstantiated guesstimate that defines common sense.
I have no idea what you are on about really.. I have no purpose or vested interest to serve. I have no allegiance with any type of rig and have maintained the same philosophy of thought through out. I told you several times I like free masts quite a lot but the point of my earlier post is that economically they do not make sense.

If you buy a 40 foot free stander new for the same cost you could get a 50 foot boat that is stayed. The bigger boat is going to mitigate any performance gain from the free stander and offer increased stability potential.

It is this reality of cost which is responsible for the status quo that we have or would you suggest it is because people really don't like the look of them. If manufacturers thought there was a way to increase their margins and maintain an acceptable price point they would be doing so already and we would be seeing them as common place production offerings.

Also I posted at the bottom of my previous posts IMHO (in my humble opinion) and of course you are welcome to yours even though it is wrong (That last bit is a joke by the way)
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Old 02-08-2015, 13:04   #134
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Beta is a better tape system than VHS, but the popularity wasn't decided on technical merits.
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Old 02-08-2015, 13:10   #135
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delancey View Post
I am more than happy to agree to disagree but find it a bit off-putting to hear you speak in absolute terms when it serves your purpose on the one hand, and then bend things to suit your argument when absolutes don't on the other. Especially during a discussion that wasn't really an argument until you started to speak in absolute terms.

The photo I posted is from the annual
EAA fly-in which I have attended and which is pretty much the be-all-end-all for recreational aircraft in the USA. Fully half the airplanes visible are under wings and of the over wings, I can garuntee they don't all have struts which would make strut wings a minority. So I guess we have different ideas about what normal is as well.

I am of the opinion that prejudicial thinking is a more likely explaination as to why there aren't more free standing rigs rigs out there and quite frankly I think your assertion that cost is the main factor just doesn't hold water, particularly when it is based on an unsubstantiated guesstimate that defines common sense.
I am in full agreement on the two bolded points above. Well said.
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