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Old 01-08-2015, 18:49   #106
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

I've actually taken the asymmetrical of the boat as the reacher is alot more versatile than it looks. I've got an article somewhere about the light wind traveler thing, I'll see if I can dig it up. I haven't got the time to comment thoroughly now but the expense of carbon fibre masts has come way down, there is guy in Melbourne Australia that is producing high quality masts at a great price, he builds ( I think ) the harry proa masts.

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Old 01-08-2015, 20:20   #107
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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You seem to be fixed on the "the bendy" issue or description.
Don't focus too much on my use of bendy. It is just my cheeky catch all word for free standing mast Steady Hand.

Anyway, by any definition of the word I would suggest free standing rigs when measured against the vast number of stayed rigs we have has to be considered "unconventional". However, this does not mean I am saying that being unconventional is a bad thing or in fact that a free standing rig is "physically" a bad performer by comparison to a stayed mast. What I am saying if I may coin a Darwinian analogy for a moment is that the economic proposition presented by free standing masts due to the inherent engineering problem does not exactly provide for free standers to be the fittest of the species economically.

It is also especially difficult for the free standing masts to justify themselves on that middle ground of second gear where a normal stayed mast can complement power with a foresail yet a free standing mast need either a taller mast or a mizzen mast.

This is somewhat of a guesstimate but I am suggesting a free standing boat designed from the bottom up is going to be 20% more in capital cost than a stayed boat, especially when we are focussing around 45 foot and have to consider the need for two un-stayed masts to provide the power we need. - Big cost!

In the real world this means I could buy a bigger boat for the same price if I was to choose instead a stayed rig and take the advantages of scale that a bigger boat would provide. Sure I would have the headache of a stayed mast but it would still be the best option for most because it translates to greater hull length. Yep, Some will go for a free standing mast option but they will be small in number and this is what we see in the real world too.

I take on board your points about Junks etc but I am not sure it is so relevant. Modern junks are motor sailors really and I am not so sure an old fashion ocean going sailing junk was not stayed anyway.

My point is simple really in its motion that dollar for dollar, choosing the stayed option will get you a bigger boat which in turn would give you generally better performance than the smaller un-stayed boat. It may seem unfair to use money as the indexing bench mark but we have no choice and is why we don’t see the un-stayed boat in equal numbers to that of stayed because the price points and economics are simply not justifiable. It makes no sense to buy a boat with free standing mast because at this time you could always buy a bigger and better boat with a non free standing mast for the same money.
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Old 01-08-2015, 21:13   #108
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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If you mean "rolled" to mean during a capsize..

If you get "rolled 360" you will likely need much more than just a mast, if you have a conventional aluminum mast.

If I am rolled 360 in a sailboat, the cost of a replacement mast will not be foremost in my concerns.
I am talking about carbon mast fabrication. Like a cigar... Lay up.
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Old 01-08-2015, 21:56   #109
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

A few shots of my Freedom.

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Old 01-08-2015, 21:58   #110
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

I liked the comment from some guy earlier who said, because he had moved to an unstayed rig and there was so little left to fail compared to a conventional yacht, that he didn't bother with insurance any more. Factor in the reduced risk of mast failure, the through-life cost of not replacing rigging, and I'd be more than happy to spend 20% more on a Freedom 32 than a Conventional 35. I just HATED living with the constant nagging fear of one shackle, one little turnbuckle, one puny terminal fitting failing and say goodbye to your mast, and maybe your boat!
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Old 01-08-2015, 22:23   #111
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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A few shots of my Freedom.
Nice pics. Very noticeable that you have only two reef points on each 'mainsail'. I guess maybe this makes sense with two masts - 40% sail area on each means by dowsing one completely you are reefed to 20% - but that large roach would still concern me and I seriously wonder how this would work with a single mast. Is there something we don't know about these boats? Do you carry trysails for the worst weather? (I'm very keen to find out everything about them.)
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Old 01-08-2015, 22:40   #112
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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If you're referring to the "capsize ratio" the Freedom 38 is 2.05. Anything over 2 is supposed to be more tipsy, ...
Thank you for patiently answering our questions - there may be lots more! But another thread virtually discounted Capsize Ratio as a near-worthless screening factor. The flush deck designs are more at risk of a low AVS value than yours.
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Old 02-08-2015, 04:30   #113
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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Nice pics. Very noticeable that you have only two reef points on each 'mainsail'. I guess maybe this makes sense with two masts - 40% sail area on each means by dowsing one completely you are reefed to 20% - but that large roach would still concern me and I seriously wonder how this would work with a single mast. Is there something we don't know about these boats? Do you carry trysails for the worst weather? (I'm very keen to find out everything about them.)

My boat sails fine with just the mainsail up if that is your question. I don't carry any heavy weather specific sails. I can't imagine the "fun" of trying to get a trysail rigged on either mast without a separate dedicated track in very rough conditions. If caught it truly severe weather I would opt to run downwind with bare poles or figure how that that Drogue works that the previous owner left onboard...

There is a book called Sailing in My Grandfather's Wake https://books.google.com/books?id=2u...20wake&f=false
that documents a circumnavigation on a Freedom 39 like mine. I don't recall any mention of heavy weather sails. For a true wealth of info I would suggest you venture over to the Freedomyachts dot org and search that forum.


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Old 02-08-2015, 05:05   #114
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Smile Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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due to the inherent engineering problem
Um, yeah. Okay. Or not.
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Old 02-08-2015, 05:40   #115
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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Um, yeah. Okay. Or not.
It's fine.. As is this light aircraft which along with other strutted craft like the Cessna is the aeronautical counter part to a mid size cruising yacht for private ownership.

This is the norm for pleasure craft coz it's much much cheaper than an non strutted wing. The cost/performance ratio is the one that matters and dictates what we buy. Stayed is good because it's cheaper. Thank you for the example.

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Old 02-08-2015, 06:08   #116
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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A few shots of my Freedom.

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It looks like a great boat to sail. Looks lovely.
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Old 02-08-2015, 06:22   #117
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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It looks like a great boat to sail. Looks lovely.

It's an exceedingly easy boat to sail. Thank you for the kind comments.


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Old 02-08-2015, 07:37   #118
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Glad to see you rationalize your own boat purchase however you like. I am sure you will be pleased with whatever you end up with. Happy sailing!

As for the rest, I dunno. Replacing standing rigging costs money and needs to be considered when examining "economics" however inconvenient to your argument, to which you can add the fact that tapered aluminum poles are cheaper than mast extrusions with spreader extrusions and a bunch of standing rigging components (same applies to carbon). Not all free-standers are cats or cat ketches as we have seen in this thread already. Modern junk rigs are not all motorsailors and Chinese junks were historically free standing.

As far as airplanes go, while I concede that there are plenty of older strut wing aircraft still out there flying, they are hardly the "norm" and really fewer and fewer are built every year.
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Old 02-08-2015, 08:14   #119
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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I liked the comment from some guy earlier who said, because he had moved to an unstayed rig and there was so little left to fail compared to a conventional yacht, that he didn't bother with insurance any more. Factor in the reduced risk of mast failure, the through-life cost of not replacing rigging, and I'd be more than happy to spend 20% more on a Freedom 32 than a Conventional 35. I just HATED living with the constant nagging fear of one shackle, one little turnbuckle, one puny terminal fitting failing and say goodbye to your mast, and maybe your boat!
I am not sure you qualify for a get out of jail free card here either because I think you need bendy sails(special material) to go with your bendy masts and they are not cheap.

Your number of sails will be fewer but what you have will be bigger and include some exotic weave that will still fail through sun damage over time.

$$$$$$$

Maybe some one who has a free standing mast can add some insight to the issue of sails with respect to cost and serviceability because I don't really have any facts to hand and am just relying on a vague memory from something that I read that indicated that they are quite expensive over and above the norm.
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Old 02-08-2015, 08:50   #120
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Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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I am not sure you qualify for a get out of jail free card here either because I think you need bendy sails(special material) to go with your bendy masts and they are not cheap.

Your number of sails will be fewer but what you have will be bigger and include some exotic weave that will still fail through sun damage over time.

Maybe some one who has a free standing mast can add some insight to the issue of sails with respect to cost and serviceability because I don't really have any facts to hand and am just relying on a vague memory from something that I read that indicated that they are quite expensive over and above the norm.

Is Dacron a special material that has an exotic weave? I've no idea what you're talking about... The mainsail on the photos I posted is over 12 years old. The mizzen is about 2 years old.


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