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Old 01-08-2015, 15:56   #91
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

In regards to wind ward performance I would say my Freedom is not great but not as bad as some would have you believe. It will point as high as most conventionally rigged yachts but not be quite as fast. I believe this is more due to the size ( diameter) of the mast more than anything else, as the main is the driving sail on the Freedom and the mast really interupts flow closehauled more than a much thinner stayed mast. In the real world I consider Freedoms quite fast for a fat cruising boat. We left Darwin for Thailand in 2011 with 120 others yachts in a rally, we recieved comments regularly along the way about how well she moves along.
In regards to being closed hauled I agree using the traveller makes a difference but I use it differently than Gamayun. I actually slide it leeward ( in light airs) approx half way with the main winched tight. Light air windward performance is really the only time I think performance suffers, I've recently added a jib top reacher from Hydes sails. This is basically a light weight flying luff genoa/code zero cross ( I think). It has really made a difference, I use it in a sock. See attached photo.
Another advantage that cat boats often have is they were designed beamy, so accommodation is quite alot for there length.
Id also like to say what a great thread this is.



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Old 01-08-2015, 16:56   #92
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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Originally Posted by micah719 View Post
...Firstly, a good sailor shouldn't be on a lee shore in the first place. Sometimes it is unavoidable...
What an excellent, enlightening argument for JR - certainly convinced me, now all I must do is find one! (Though those pretty pictures of Freedom 38 are kinda neat too.) As for lee shores: ANY enclosed, sheltered, safe (?) anchorage is a lee shore on one side or the other. Like Popeye, I cruised an engineless yacht for one year - being engineless makes one acutely aware of lee shores!

Question: does anyone have AVS or STIX numbers (or GZ or GM stability curves) for any of the Freedom range of yachts? I can't find them anywhere (and a low AVS would be a deal-breaker for me).
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Old 01-08-2015, 17:05   #93
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Whats Avs? Sorry showing my ignorance, im not a racer.

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Old 01-08-2015, 17:38   #94
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

AVS = angle of vanishing stability. European Cat A (offshore) standard highlights the importance of this figure; STIX is another EU measure of offshore capability. Any yacht sold into Europe is required to provide these numbers, independently measured. Most designers recommend a minimum AVS of around 130 degrees for any offshore/ocean capable yacht, whether racing or cruising. European yachts must have their stability information published - not so easy to find information on US yachts.
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Old 01-08-2015, 17:40   #95
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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Originally Posted by daletournier View Post
Whats Avs? Sorry showing my ignorance, im not a racer.

Sent from my GT-N7105T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
AVS = Angle Of Vanishing Stability

It is the angle of heel from which the boat will capsize or lose stability.

ON catamarans and trimarans, mono sailors would call it the "point of NO return."

Once you reach the that point, you are going to capsize.

Some boats have an AVS of something like 120 degrees, others even more! I have seedn one boat with an AVS of 180 degrees!

To be clear, if you are broached and your mast is parallel to the water, the mast would be 90 degrees.

The keel on a typical mono would allow the spreaders to touch th water or have the top of the mast hit the water, and still recover to upright position.
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Old 01-08-2015, 17:46   #96
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Quote:
Originally Posted by daletournier View Post
In regards to wind ward performance I would say my Freedom is not great but not as bad as some would have you believe. It will point as high as most conventionally rigged yachts but not be quite as fast. I believe this is more due to the size ( diameter) of the mast more than anything else, as the main is the driving sail on the Freedom and the mast really interupts flow closehauled more than a much thinner stayed mast. In the real world I consider Freedoms quite fast for a fat cruising boat. We left Darwin for Thailand in 2011 with 120 others yachts in a rally, we recieved comments regularly along the way about how well she moves along.
In regards to being closed hauled I agree using the traveller makes a difference but I use it differently than Gamayun. I actually slide it leeward ( in light airs) approx half way with the main winched tight. Light air windward performance is really the only time I think performance suffers, I've recently added a jib top reacher from Hydes sails. This is basically a light weight flying luff genoa/code zero cross ( I think). It has really made a difference, I use it in a sock. See attached photo.
Another advantage that cat boats often have is they were designed beamy, so accommodation is quite alot for there length.
Id also like to say what a great thread this is.



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Two quick comments:
I like high cut jibs or Yankees because of the good visibility forward when one is at the helm. And I like flying jobs on traditional boats too.

The interior of your boat looks Ver nice! My first impression: I could live on that boat! Nice salon/saloon! I also like to see art in a boat. Will have lots on mine in future.
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Old 01-08-2015, 17:51   #97
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

To Anyone with a Free Standing Mast boat: please post some photos showing your sails, your mast type, the boom to mast connection, etc.

Thanks in advance!
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Old 01-08-2015, 17:55   #98
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

I am not sure a free standing rig will be ever as good as conventional stayed rig simply because of cost but moreover what this implication of cost implies.

A 45 foot boat with a stayed mast is arguably better than a 30 foot boat with free standing mast in many ways.. Performance, comfort, safety, etc, and is available to you today for one day only at the same price as the 30 foot free stander. Any takers? Most of us would take that deal and this will generally always be the case because that bendy element is massively difficult to calculate and engineer and is really for most part a cottage industry that does not give the economy of scale needed to compete hence producing bendy masts is highly expensive and dare I say, still some what more of an art rather than an exact science.

I have read instances where people have commissioned new rigs because the original unstayed experiment was just a little too bendy and unless you have a few bob and a philanthropists mindset to help maverick designers push back the boundaries of R & D it just does not make economic sense.

Go beyond 40 foot and you start to need two very expensive bendy masts that would probably present an even bigger cost differential over an equivalent size boat with a stayed rig and if it is a custom build(which they usually are) it will come without aguarantee of much performance benefit either. A very risky performance investment.

Sure, a stayed mast creates a lot more issues for considerations but nothing near a deal breaker that would stop most economic minded people from choosing the 55 foot unstayed over the 40 foot stayed for the same price. The benefit of greater scale always wins the day 9 times out of 10.

If yacht manufactures could build stayed masts and get the price point down I think they would be offering it as an option. However the run of the mill market is not willing to foot the bill for it in the 40 to 70 foot segment.

I think the unstayed mast has a small cottage industry part to play in the realms of single masted craft design and and then we will not see it again untill the "super yacht" category except by way of avante guarde design such as we see on the Harry Proa mentioned elsewhere on this forum which makes perfect sense because there is no better alternative.

A 300k boat with a stayed mast will beat a 300k boat with an unstayed mast because the stayed boat will be much bigger. IMHO
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Old 01-08-2015, 18:05   #99
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
... because that bendy element is massively difficult to calculate and engineer and is really for most part a cottage industry that does not give the economy of scale needed to compete hence producing bendy masts is highly expensive ... IMHO
JR doesn't involve bendy masts. And Freedom has the mast design/production sorted, so no more expense than the carbon needed.
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Old 01-08-2015, 18:19   #100
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post
JR doesn't involve bendy masts. And Freedom has the mast design/production sorted, so no more expense than the carbon needed.
Yep... The design is locked in. You are quite right. For how many years? It was at trafalgar - no?

Nice boat. I do agree but check out the cost of having that carbon mast rolled. On my boat I only need an aluminium stick.
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Old 01-08-2015, 18:28   #101
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Quote:
Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post
AVS = angle of vanishing stability. European Cat A (offshore) standard highlights the importance of this figure; STIX is another EU measure of offshore capability. Any yacht sold into Europe is required to provide these numbers, independently measured. Most designers recommend a minimum AVS of around 130 degrees for any offshore/ocean capable yacht, whether racing or cruising. European yachts must have their stability information published - not so easy to find information on US yachts.
If you're referring to the "capsize ratio" the Freedom 38 is 2.05. Anything over 2 is supposed to be more tipsy, but there's a good bit of disagreement about the value compared to the boat. A Cal 39 rates 1.92. Mine is very comfortable in a seaway with a 12.5-ft beam. Not sure how that ratio compares to the AVS in degrees. You can calculate values for different boats here: Sail Calculator Pro v2.72.

Here's a good explanation of why those values aren't the end all, be all for boat stability: http://www.wavetrain.net/boats-a-gea...ying-stability
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Old 01-08-2015, 18:30   #102
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
Yep... The design is locked in. You are quite right. For how many years? It was at trafalgar - no?

Nice boat. I do agree but check out the cost of having that carbon mast rolled. On my boat I only need an aluminium stick.
It has been a long time since I did the research, but I recall finding just a couple of instances when a Freedom was rolled. The mast stayed intact. However, I'd really appreciate more info on this, if anyone knows more directly or has heard. Not that I really care, mind you I still have the boat I want.
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Old 01-08-2015, 18:34   #103
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
I am not sure a free standing rig will be ever as good as conventional stayed rig simply because of cost but moreover what this implication of cost implies.

A 45 foot boat with a stayed mast is arguably better than a 30 foot boat with free standing mast in many ways.. Performance, comfort, safety, etc, and is available to you today for one day only at the same price as the 30 foot free stander. Any takers? Most of us would take that deal and this will generally always be the case because that bendy element is massively difficult to calculate and engineer and is really for most part a cottage industry that does not give the economy of scale needed to compete hence producing bendy masts is highly expensive and dare I say, still some what more of an art rather than an exact science.

I have read instances where people have commissioned new rigs because the original unstayed experiment was just a little too bendy and unless you have a few bob and a philanthropists mindset to help maverick designers push back the boundaries of R & D it just does not make economic sense.

Go beyond 40 foot and you start to need two very expensive bendy masts that would probably present an even bigger cost differential over an equivalent size boat with a stayed rig and if it is a custom build(which they usually are) it will come without aguarantee of much performance benefit either. A very risky performance investment.

Sure, a stayed mast creates a lot more issues for considerations but nothing near a deal breaker that would stop most economic minded people from choosing the 55 foot unstayed over the 40 foot stayed for the same price. The benefit of greater scale always wins the day 9 times out of 10.

If yacht manufactures could build stayed masts and get the price point down I think they would be offering it as an option. However the run of the mill market is not willing to foot the bill for it in the 40 to 70 foot segment.

I think the unstayed mast has a small cottage industry part to play in the realms of single masted craft design and and then we will not see it again untill the "super yacht" category except by way of avante guarde design such as we see on the Harry Proa mentioned elsewhere on this forum which makes perfect sense because there is no better alternative.

A 300k boat with a stayed mast will beat a 300k boat with an unstayed mast because the stayed boat will be much bigger. IMHO
Hi Paul.

Typos that follow are because I am using an iPad and typing quickly. I do not have time to also edit the post, so excuse the typos.

I generally enjoy reading your comments on various threads and welcome your input on this one. .

But I don't agree with most of what you wrote above, and found most of it odd.

I bolded just one of the points you made, but several leave me wondering what gives you these notions.

You seem to be fixed on the "the bendy" issue or description.

Please understand that unconventional rigs, and a freestanding rig may or may not be considered conventional, depending upon your POV, are generally moderate in performance. Highly "bendy" rigs, whether stayed or unstated are usually used or tried by owners who want to push the envelope or gain some advantage over their competitors or racing peers.

Some classic boats stayed boats, usually racers,have very bendy rigs and would probably never be considered by a cruiser or blue water sailor. For example, I would not chose an ex racing boat with a very bendy mast for my cruise around the world or in high latitudes.

So to say that some unnamed sailor has chosen some type of rig and then was disatisfied does not surprise me in the least bit.

Racers, for example are NEVER SATISFIED with their boats rig, tuning, or performance. :

When I read critical or supportive comments I always consider the source.

And, the uncommon or unusual aspects of free standing rigs on large cruising boats or one offs means ther are always going be critics of the uncommon.

And the very nature of "One Off" boats leads many to be experimental in design or materials. So again it does not suprise me that someone tried something and did not stick with it or it was not popular.

On the contrary, the Junk Rig has had a long continuous history of use. The many Junk Rig owners comments I have read are very satisfied.

Similarly, over the years I have spread many positive comments from owners of Freed Standing Mast boats like the Freedom line and the Nonsuch too. I earlier posted several links to comments and articles about the Wyliecat boats too.

So, while the Junk Rig or the Free Standing Boat may not be for you, I think it is wrong to say that it is "not as good" as a conventional stayed rig.
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Old 01-08-2015, 18:39   #104
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Quote:
Originally Posted by daletournier View Post
In regards to wind ward performance I would say my Freedom is not great but not as bad as some would have you believe. It will point as high as most conventionally rigged yachts but not be quite as fast. I believe this is more due to the size ( diameter) of the mast more than anything else, as the main is the driving sail on the Freedom and the mast really interupts flow closehauled more than a much thinner stayed mast. In the real world I consider Freedoms quite fast for a fat cruising boat. We left Darwin for Thailand in 2011 with 120 others yachts in a rally, we recieved comments regularly along the way about how well she moves along.
In regards to being closed hauled I agree using the traveller makes a difference but I use it differently than Gamayun. I actually slide it leeward ( in light airs) approx half way with the main winched tight. Light air windward performance is really the only time I think performance suffers, I've recently added a jib top reacher from Hydes sails. This is basically a light weight flying luff genoa/code zero cross ( I think). It has really made a difference, I use it in a sock. See attached photo.
Another advantage that cat boats often have is they were designed beamy, so accommodation is quite alot for there length.
Id also like to say what a great thread this is.
I really like that reacher!! I have an asym in the ATN sock that I plan to practice on this fall when the winds die down a bit. Then maybe a reacher next year for light, upwind sailing. I'll move the traveler to leeward and see how that works. I do have a hard time moving the boat upwind in less than 10 knots, but there's usually 20-25 knots throughout the summer.
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Old 01-08-2015, 18:42   #105
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
Yep... The design is locked in. You are quite right. For how many years? It was at trafalgar - no?

Nice boat. I do agree but check out the cost of having that carbon mast rolled. On my boat I only need an aluminium stick.

If you mean "rolled" to mean during a capsize..

If you get "rolled 360" you will likely need much more than just a mast, if you have a conventional aluminum mast.

If I am rolled 360 in a sailboat, the cost of a replacement mast will not be foremost in my concerns.
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