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Old 31-07-2015, 08:25   #61
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Just posting so as to keep up with new posts on this thread. GREAT subject! This month I'm hitting 71 and realize I'm putting Karen back together for the next sailor and that age and health/stamina issues will prevent me from meaningful voyaging. I'll stumble along until Karen is ready for a younger sailor to test him/herself against the elements. I CAN'T stop sailing, but a smaller, simple rig will carry my old butt in the skinny waters of this country in peace and comfort. I've done all the important stuff and have the stuff to finish the job already. I'll be open to a trade or sell to a younger person. I'm thinking catboat, Meadowlark, junk, etc. Wood, glass, cold moulded. . Anything I don't have to bring back from the edge of the grave. I'm kind of enjoying being an old fart; just miss the strength and agility of youth. Any takers?
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Old 31-07-2015, 10:06   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jreiter190
Just posting so as to keep up with new posts on this thread. GREAT subject! This month I'm hitting 71 and realize I'm putting Karen back together for the next sailor and that age and health/stamina issues will prevent me from meaningful voyaging. I'll stumble along until Karen is ready for a younger sailor to test him/herself against the elements. I CAN'T stop sailing, but a smaller, simple rig will carry my old butt in the skinny waters of this country in peace and comfort. I've done all the important stuff and have the stuff to finish the job already. I'll be open to a trade or sell to a younger person. I'm thinking catboat, Meadowlark, junk, etc. Wood, glass, cold moulded. . Anything I don't have to bring back from the edge of the grave. I'm kind of enjoying being an old fart; just miss the strength and agility of youth. Any takers?

Oh you would certainly be well served sailing a free standing mast, self tacking rig sailboat.

Best to you in your search.
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Old 31-07-2015, 10:32   #63
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Quote:
Originally Posted by jreiter190 View Post
Just posting so as to keep up with new posts on this thread. GREAT subject! This month I'm hitting 71 and realize I'm putting Karen back together for the next sailor and that age and health/stamina issues will prevent me from meaningful voyaging. I'll stumble along until Karen is ready for a younger sailor to test him/herself against the elements. I CAN'T stop sailing, but a smaller, simple rig will carry my old butt in the skinny waters of this country in peace and comfort. I've done all the important stuff and have the stuff to finish the job already. I'll be open to a trade or sell to a younger person. I'm thinking catboat, Meadowlark, junk, etc. Wood, glass, cold moulded. . Anything I don't have to bring back from the edge of the grave. I'm kind of enjoying being an old fart; just miss the strength and agility of youth. Any takers?
Hey, they're not just for older people!! Ease of sail, especially when short-handed, is one of their biggest features.

As to heavy weather sailing, I've tried to sail in 32 knots with just jib alone. The boat would not respond. I haven't yet set up the preventers for back-winding the main, but we should be able hove to under main alone and just sheet in the jib.

As to the main sail, it is a new sail so still getting used to it. It's about 550 square feet with 5 full battens and 2 deep reefs. The second reef is around 40% of the main so it's for full on hurricane force conditions. I put in the first reef around 24 knots when single-handing and around 28 knots when there is crew though this has been mostly in the bay when sea state is not a critical issue. Offshore, I'll probably reef earlier. I hope I never have to use the second reef!!
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Old 31-07-2015, 10:47   #64
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post
Howdy Sailors!

One of the most important boat design decisions is "What kind of Rig?"

For many years I have been interested in the simplicity of the "Free Standing Mast" rigs seen on a variety of boat brands and types. Some of these boats are traditional "cat boats," some are "junk rig boats," and some are high tech boats.

I am starting this thread in order to put together some materials and videos and information and discussion on Free Standing Masts (rigs).

This is an open discussion thread. Of course you may post your own photos, videos, links, comments etc.
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To get it started, I am going to post some video clips and photos from I have in my notes regarding various boats I have seen using Free Standing Masts. This will include many different kinds of boats and different sizes and even different types of sails.

Let me emphasize that last point. This will include different types of sails and very different designs and sail plans. You see, boats with Free Standing Masts may be:

1. Sloop
2. Ketch
3. Junk
4. Catboat
5. Sprit
6. Lateen

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The first example I will post is a Wyliecat Cat Boat. But, you will also see a 65 foot Cat Ketch in the videos.

These use the distinctive Free Standing Mast, with a wishbone boom. Remember, they are not the only boat maker (brand) to use this combination, and I will post photos and videos of the others as soon as possible.
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Key Points for Discusson:

1. Simplicity of Rig (and easy maintenance)

2. Simplicity of Operation (using the sails)

When watching these videos, the key thing to see is the ease and simplicity of the tacking maneuver. Unlike boats that have a foresail on a stay (the typical jib or genoa on a forestay) and that require quick sheeting and winch work on jib sheet winches, a catboat simply tacks over the helm.

Consequently, a sailor with a cat boat (for example) can do a lot of "short tacking" very easily, just by moving the tiller or turning his wheel, with NO need to adjust the sails or to sheet or to grind on any winch.

This makes this kind of rig especially appealing to single handing sailors or shorthanded sailing crews (e.g. a couple).

Other brands of boats have a similar "Free Standing Mast" and rig. A few noteworthy ones are some of the Freedom Yachts boats, and the Nonsuch boats. I will post photos and videos about them soon. I will also post photos of other boats (including custom boats and one-offs) and homebuilt boats too. Anything that has a Free Standing Mast is open for posting or discussion in this thread.

We should also discuss the relative merits or shortcomings of this type of rig. More on that later.

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The most important point about a Free Standing Mast:

No Shrouds or Stays

Now, consider the parts of a typical stayed mast that must be in perfect condition to be safe and seaworthy:

1. Stays
2. Shrouds
3. Spreaders
4. Chainplates
5. All connecting fittings
6. Boom Vang

Each of those requires maintenance, and occasional replacement. Replacing the "standing rigging" during a yacht's refit can be expensive, and with typical stainless wire shrouds, it is generally suggested to replace them completely every 10 years. Replacing chainplates can be a big hassle, if they are embedded in the hull (not external).

In contrast, the Free Standing Mast generally lasts the life of the boat. Some will require some maintenance, depending upon their materials (e.g. wood needs varnishing or painting).
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Free Standing Masts have been made from a variety of materials including the following:

Solid Wood Spars (tree trunks)

Hollow Wood Spars (square, octagonal, rounded, hollow masts)

Aluminum (e.g. Aluminum light poles have been used)

Fiberglass

Carbon Fiber

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NOTE: I have NO financial connection to the boats or manufacturers or sellers of any of the boats I post here. I am posting this information for discussion purposes so CF members can discuss the merits of different boat designs.
There are no technical constraints for all sailboats to have free standing masts these days. Composites are a given. From an engineering perspective the benefits are obvious.

It's the reluctance to adopt new manufacturing processes by most manufacturers that is the constraint.

I suspect that once the first volume manufacturer makes the the change to freestanding and realises a cost benefit then all the other volume manufacturers will also change.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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Old 31-07-2015, 13:35   #65
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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Originally Posted by Greatketch33 View Post
Oh you would certainly be well served sailing a free standing mast, self tacking rig sailboat.

Best to you in your search.
Thanks for the good wishes. I'm 100 percent permanently disabled by the VA and collecting s/s benefits, so I'm o.k. finances-wise. Just don't have the stamina to finish Karen, a 1965 Alberg 35.Well, I'll FINISH her eventually. I have never owned a boat that I didn't live aboard the last 50 years or so. I'm two years cancer-free this month but it really knocked the stuffing out of me. Not whining; just pooped (pun intended).
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Old 31-07-2015, 16:21   #66
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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Thanks for the good wishes...
Yea, good luck Popeye. I'm not too far behind you age-wise (well maybe a little) so if you find two stout vessels that may suit us, let me know. Otherwise we'll have to put the word out that free-standing masts are crap and try to drive the price down.

That Alberg 35 will make a nice blue-water voyager for someone.
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Old 31-07-2015, 16:50   #67
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

I remembered there was a fiberglass boat builder in my home town of Santa Ana, Ca. named Bill Tritt back in the 50's who built a fiberglass cat Ketch with f/g masts. Google Glass par or Bill Tritt or Glass par Privateer
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Old 31-07-2015, 16:51   #68
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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... I hope I never have to use the second reef!!
You will! I've never heard of an offshore yacht with only two reefs in the main. 40% sounds like way too much sail. Do you have one mast or two? (I couldn't access your photo link.)
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Old 31-07-2015, 16:55   #69
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Glasspar is one word
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Old 31-07-2015, 17:12   #70
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

From an aerodynamic point of view I think that the big fat round pole on a cat rigged boat would have a negative effect on the luff of the sail. I am not bashing cat boats. In fact, I rather like their philosophical approach to sailing.

Has anyone ever measured how close to the wind the cat rig would sail to the wind versus a Marconi rig?

Another question I have is with the main stick so far forward what happens with weather helm? Is it improved or worsened?
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Old 31-07-2015, 18:06   #71
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

My old friend the Laser. Fast. Weatherly. I have been just barely out of sight of shore once.

Did I mention it has a free standing rig? Points just fine last time I checked.
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Old 31-07-2015, 21:25   #72
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Delancey, very cool day sailor. But how does a 40+ foot Freedom clawing to windward point versus something like (you name it..racer/cruiser boat of same length?


I am after information by experienced sailors who may own or who have ridden on free mast boats and their observations. Even if they don't (or do) point as well I think the trade offs are worth serious considerations. Remember that youtube clip where a ketch rigged free masted mono with just the foreward sail drawing...sails right by the other boat on the same point of sail...perhaps it was a close reach..? It is amazing how much faster the free masted boat was then the camera boat.
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Old 31-07-2015, 22:12   #73
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Good point. I totally agree that the kind of drag and turbulence produced the spreaders and standing rigging on a typical Marconi rig are over estimated in terms of their negative impact on performance. Besides laminar flow is a total myth anyway. What a joke!
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Old 01-08-2015, 01:16   #74
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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You will! I've never heard of an offshore yacht with only two reefs in the main. 40% sounds like way too much sail. Do you have one mast or two? (I couldn't access your photo link.)
FINALLY figured out how to insert a pic!
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Old 01-08-2015, 02:37   #75
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Nice yacht, nice sails (good laminar flow???) - takes a while to notice the two lead boats in picture have nothing holding up their masts!
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