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Old 03-08-2015, 07:13   #181
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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Originally Posted by Delancey View Post
Bit like apples and oranges to compare different boats from different builders. Even harder to compare used of the same make boats based on asking price when so much depends on condition and pride. FWIW here's two Tantons, one cat ketch and the other a sloop rigged Marconi for basically the same price. I know which one I would pick.

1981 Tanton 43 sailboat for sale in Alabama

1982 ta chiao 44 Tanton sailboat for sale in Outside United States
Thanks for adding these two links and the points too.

It is interesting to see the same boat in FSM and Stayed Rig too.

Given that the two are close in price, I would choose the FSM boat.

I will post two photos from the sale listing, so this thread will contain more photos to illustrate these boats. One photo shows the forward part of the wishbone boom and closeup of the mast.
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Old 03-08-2015, 07:21   #182
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Yeah well, not ALL free standing rigs HAVE to be made out of carbon. Not really sure why you would insist that they do, particularly since you seem so focused on trying to use "economics" to justify your argument, but you keep doing it.

By comparison you can get a 50' long 10" diameter .25" wall tapered anodized aluminum tube for about $7,500USD which is less than half of what you would pay for a typical stayed rig that has an extruded mast, extruded spreaders and a lot of bits and bobs.
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Old 03-08-2015, 08:22   #183
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delancey View Post
Bit like apples and oranges to compare different boats from different builders. Even harder to compare used of the same make boats based on asking price when so much depends on condition and pride. FWIW here's two Tantons, one cat ketch and the other a sloop rigged Marconi for basically the same price. I know which one I would pick.

1981 Tanton 43 sailboat for sale in Alabama

1982 ta chiao 44 Tanton sailboat for sale in Outside United States
Just to make this comparison easier here on this forum:

The FSM (Cat Ketch, Wisbone boom) boat is a 1981 and listed at $79K.

The Stayed Rig (sloop) is a 1982 and is listed at $76K.

Same designer, same model hull, same builder. Essentially they are the same boat with two different rigs.

Notice that the Cat Ketch has TWO masts (the designer Yves Tanton believes this is advantageous at this size boat).

The difference in price of these two used boats is "negligible" to me, considering they are very comparable in many respects.

But the $79K FSM boat ($3k asking price difference) has a BIG difference in appeal to me, because I do find the Cat Ketch and FSM rig appealing and consider it to have advantages for my type of sailing and intended use.

In addition, if all other things were equal (age of boats, condition of boats), I would feel inclined to question the age and condition and potential for failure of the Stayed Rig more than I would the FSM.

Both boats are about 35 years old. I would ask the owners of any boats that age: "When did you last replace the standing rigging."

Given the age of the boat, I would wonder if the many fittings and wires on the Stayed rig were in need of replacement and how soon and at what cost. Conversely, I would not have as much concern (or fewer concerns) with the FSM mast.

Of course there is always a need to be cautious about buying any used boat and a need to carefully examine something as essential as the rig. I would prefer to have a very qualified professional "rigger" do the inspection.

My point is that with the FSM boat, it seems to me there is LESS likelihood that new standing rigging will be required by the new owner who is buying a used boat, because there is LESS standing rigging (wires and bits) to replace due to age.
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I think this example should dispel the misconception that a FSM rig on a boat is necessarily much more expensive than the same boat with a more common Stayed Rig.
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I will post some more information on this type of boat and some quotes by the designer too, in a following post.
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Old 03-08-2015, 08:40   #184
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

It's a comfort to me to find a schooner rig on what is also famous as being a very capable little cruiser, the smallest known viable steel-hulled boat, the TT24:



It was a Boat of the Month at the JRA, which also features a Portland Pudgy with a JR....

The Junk Rig Association - HOME
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Old 03-08-2015, 08:43   #185
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Since the Tanton 43 has been brought into the discussion in several ways, I am going to post some more information about it and some quoted text that is the designer's view on FSM issues related to the advantages of the FSM, the Cat Ketch sail plan, and the use of Wisbone Booms.

For those who don't already know, Yves Tanton is a well respected designer of fast boats.

In the quoted text that follows, I have quoted Tanton. I added the bolding to draw attention to some key points he made.
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The photos below will show the Tanton 43 Cat Ketch in various sailing photos.
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Cat Ketch Rig (FSM)
The views of Yves Tanton


SOURCE of Quoted Text:
Tanton Yachts

"The Cat ketch rig is not an aberration but the most popular and prolific sailing rig of yesteryear, evolving from the New Haven Sharpie of the 1850's. Minimal crew and ease of handling were important in working sailboats. Sailors turn to the Cat Ketch rig as they once more seek the same virtues.
Sailors worldwide might convert to free- standing rigs in the future. And why not? A free-standing rig makes the same sense for sailboats as a free-standing wing does for airplanes. Simple, safe, and more aerodynamically efficient. For cruising or racing."

"I have produced custom sailboats for years, designed, engineered and constructed to be the optimum with various rig configurations. But I have also developed Cat-Ketch rigged yachts. By this I mean boats with rig and hull designs conceived for proper balance, which requires a certain degree of contrary thinking from that required to design sloop or cutter rigs.
The Marine Industry 23 years ago with one exception was not geared toward the free-standing rig and the Cat-Ketch in particular. To compensate for this a manufacturing capability had to be developed. The carbon composite technology for producing the rigs surpassed anything seen in the sailing industry.

I am convinced that free-standing- rigged cruising boats in the 35' LOA and larger range should have two masts to maximize performance, ease of handling and cruising enjoyment. The Cat ketch rig provides the optimum power to weight ratio for larger boats with the least amount of weight aloft.

It allows for proper balance of hull/rig parameters, lowers the center of effort, increases the boat's stability, allows for the shallowest draft with the best windward ability, and lets you carry maximum sail with the easiest sail handling capability in all sorts of sailing conditions.

To accomplish the best design and construction of larger Cat Ketch yachts, it is necessary to develop the technology to produce lightweight and extremely strong carbon-fiber composite, free- standing masts to be used with wishbone booms. Aluminum and wood can be used on smaller boats were loading factor are not substantial enough to require carbon composite masts or justify their cost. They must, however, be fabricated from the highest-grade aluminum alloys and designed to accept bending moments to handle loads created by forces inherent in the boat's hull design. And preferably utilized with a Cat- ketch rig which subjects each mast to far lower loads in relation to the sail area than a similar size boat with cat boat rig or free-standing sloop rig.

Use of the wishbone boom in its fullest sense requires that the full camber (draft) of each sail can be set with no pinching of the sail or distortion of air flow, while the entire boom should be capable of rotating more than 180 degrees about the spar. Not possible on a rig with shrouds or a boom affixed to a gooseneck. The wishbone boom acts as both the boom and vang, being one piece of equipment that replaces all the normal complexities of gear and equipment associated with straight booms affixed to a gooseneck at the mast.

If increased roach is desired for racing or extreme light air performance, full battens need then only be adds to the top half of each sail. Wishbone booms also provide the easiest possible sailing with no threat of boom hitting anyone in the cockpit. Only one or two winches are necessary, and no large crew required handling them.

The rig technology and hull designs have created Cat Ketch rigged yachts where each mast is, in effect, a true flex loading beam incorporated into a hull designed and constructed specifically to work with its qualities.

Combined with wishbone booms, these yachts have proven to be well balanced with excellent windward ability. Yachts which can be handled with the absolute minimum of gear and equipment.

The result is a sailing yacht, which I believe provides the best of both worlds--excellent performance, easy handling, and complete cruising comfort. No excess headsails or gear, no crew, and no work! They answer the need for an easier and less complicated way to enjoy sailing."
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Old 03-08-2015, 08:43   #186
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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Originally Posted by Delancey View Post
Yeah well, not ALL free standing rigs HAVE to be made out of carbon. Not really sure why you would insist that they do, particularly since you seem so focused on trying to use "economics" to justify your argument, but you keep doing it.

By comparison you can get a 50' long 10" diameter .25" wall tapered anodized aluminum tube for about $7,500USD which is less than half of what you would pay for a typical stayed rig that has an extruded mast, extruded spreaders and a lot of bits and bobs.
I do not insist, I simply take a leaf out of the experts book such as Eric Sponberg in reply to the above posed question who says that at 40 foot boat with the height that this implies requires the strength and lightness of carbon x 2 for the sail area you need.

Aluminium becomes very questionable as a material at this height with respect to its load carrying capability un-stayed. Not sure we can ignore physics to navigate our way around the problem of price points. IMHO or course.

Sure, you could even run a wooden mast but would it work or risk undermining the mission statement? Probably...
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Old 03-08-2015, 08:44   #187
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

I lead the team that designed, engineered, manufactured, and installed this freestanding public art project by artist Ned Kahn.

The individual wind leaves were comprised of 40' long 10" diameter .25" wall aluminum tubes set into 18" diameter steel tubes with paired tapered roller bearings. Unlike a typical monohull which can heel to deflect loads, the bases of these structures were completely rigid with substantial concrete footings and the whole assembly is designed to handle a 2" thick coating of ice in 110 mph winds without falling over and killing someone. Not really worried about the suitability of aluminum when it comes to freestanding rigs.

Have you ever designed and built anything?

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Old 03-08-2015, 08:58   #188
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Carbon is nice...but let's look at what you're really getting, and consider the cost of these benefits.

First, a comparison by a carbon mast builder:
Carbon Fibre Masts - Boat Design Forums

If money were no object I personally would still not go for it....I'd stick with steel mast. My battens and dinghy spars are another story...I'd consider carbon reinforcing over alloy, timber or bamboo. Pure carbon fibre scares me...look at the fatigue and failure modes. Razor sharp fragments spraying around doesn't appeal to me, neither do the fatigue modes over the lifetime of the whole system.
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Old 03-08-2015, 09:00   #189
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Metal deforms, carbon explodes!
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Old 03-08-2015, 10:24   #190
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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Originally Posted by Delancey View Post
I lead the team that designed, engineered, manufactured, and installed this freestanding public art project by artist Ned Kahn.

The individual wind leaves were comprised of 40' long 10" diameter .25" wall aluminum tubes set into 18" diameter steel tubes with paired tapered roller bearings. Unlike a typical monohull which can heel to deflect loads, the bases of these structures were completely rigid with substantial concrete footings and the whole assembly is designed to handle a 2" thick coating of ice in 110 mph winds without falling over and killing someone. Not really worried about the suitability of aluminum when it comes to freestanding rigs.

Have you ever designed and built anything?

Sorry, I was away and did not see your post.

Very nice job. Looks great. I can’t see very clearly but it seems you have about 150 square foot there either side weather vaning in the wind.

I wonder though, with respect what would your mast would look like and how heavy it would be if it had to resist the dynamic pressure of air at the wind velocities you mention whilst carrying three times the sail area plus itself side ways on in a sudden squall whilst being levered against the weather by the righting forces of the boat. Without snapping.

I am thinking it would look quite a lot different.
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Old 03-08-2015, 10:32   #191
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The nice part of time is it gives us datum to help us learn: there are several boats still in use that had been built with carbon fiber and combo of glass 30 years ago.

Also in considering cost there are those that are up front, others are maintenance cost, and others preventative in that risk is reduced. With less points of failure, the potential cost pertaining to physical damage to the boat and harm to human makes carbon fiber cost attractive.

Regarding sailing such a boat: very stable and comfortable, able to hold a line well, often self steering without auto pilot or lines to hold steering. Loose footed sails are provide plenty of headroom, and able to perform gybes without worry.

The builder of CKY Herreshoff boats said his intention was to build a very safe boat: he did.

Happy sailing!
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Old 03-08-2015, 10:48   #192
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Don't recall the specifics of the loads but the assumption when doing the math was fixed, non rotating, and covered on all sides in two inches of ice at the stated wind speed.

I believe the sail area was around 350 square feet and dead load of the sails included a 2" x .125 aluminum square tube framework covered both sides with .060" aluminum sheet, the weight of the pixel panels themselves which wasn't very much, plus the weight of the ice.

Basically the combined live and dead loads were wayyyy more than you would ever see on a sailboat rig with canvas sails not covered in two inches of ice and free to heel and deflect as called upon.

Believe what you like about your imagined dynamic loads and continue to selectively rely on whatever experts are convenient to your argument.

I'll continue to rely on my own personal first hand experience. If you had that same experience you might think things to look differently than you do.
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Old 03-08-2015, 11:12   #193
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

I came across this in Ocean Navigator magazine site. It was published over 12 years ago in January-February issue 2003!

A lot has changed since then in technology and materials science and the availability and use of some materials that were once VERY exotic (e.g. Titanium, Carbon Fiber).

Here is a clip from that article. I have bolded a few points that have been mentioned previously in this thread.

SOURCE: Are new rigs voyage ready? - Ocean Navigator - January/February 2003

Are new rigs voyage ready?
Jan 1, 2003
"Today’s unstayed, rotating rigs owe a lot to the round-section, unstayed rigs developed by Garry Hoyt, Mark Ellis, Eric Sponberg and Yves Tanton. Successful production boats by Freedom Yachts and Hinterhoeller (the Nonsuch catboat series) demonstrated that unstayed rigs could be a viable option for mainstream, offshore-capable yachts. In some cases, they also helped to establish the credentials of carbon-fiber masts during an era when this material was, to a large extent, banned from yacht racing.

As a dedicated sailing futurist, Garry Hoyt has long argued that stayed rigs are a throwback to the bi-plane era - a compelling notion, but one that tends to minimize some key differences between sailboats and aircraft. However, it’s been nearly three decades since the launch of Hoyt’s original Freedom 40 cat ketch with its thick, free-standing masts and rather uninspiring upwind abilities.

We’ve finally reached the point where the all-around performance of the latest unstayed rigs is drawing level with most of the conventional alternatives. More important, these free-standing rigs are often coming out ahead in terms of functionality and overall user-friendliness.

Unstayed rigs tend to bend in gusts, automatically de-powering the mainsail as needed.

They greatly reduce boat maintenance because the usual assortment of toggles, turnbuckles, tangs, and wires - each a potential failure point - is entirely eliminated.

Provided the engineering and construction are right to begin with, an unstayed rig should normally last the life of the boat."
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Old 03-08-2015, 11:44   #194
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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Originally Posted by Delancey View Post
Don't recall the specifics of the loads but the assumption when doing the math was fixed, non rotating, and covered on all sides in two inches of ice at the stated wind speed.

I believe the sail area was around 350 square feet and dead load of the sails included a 2" x .125 aluminum square tube framework covered both sides with .060" aluminum sheet, the weight of the pixel panels themselves which wasn't very much, plus the weight of the ice.

Basically the combined live and dead loads were wayyyy more than you would ever see on a sailboat rig with canvas sails not covered in two inches of ice and free to heel and deflect as called upon.

Believe what you like about your imagined dynamic loads and continue to selectively rely on whatever experts are convenient to your argument.

I'll continue to rely on my own personal first hand experience. If you had that same experience you might think things to look differently than you do.
I found your reply up to and including the third paragraph to be very interesting then you lost me somewhat. I am not at liberty to make reference to my achievement/experience for sake of point but that does not mean they do not exist. It is simply the case that it is not the done thing to directly extol ones virtues in my world so please forgive my modesty but maybe we could stay with the topic rather than personalise it. I have no doubt you have lots of experience and as I said before your art piece looks super.
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Old 03-08-2015, 12:01   #195
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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Originally Posted by Delancey View Post
Gosh, you built that yourself? Aren't you afraid? It could fail with lethal consequences! I would feel much safer if it was made from carbon and really expensive.

Just kidding. Love it. How did you make the parrel bands? With beads? Always wondered if you couldn't you Dyneema a soft shackles, you know how it has that kind of slippery feel to it?

Is that PT in the background?
Delancey, Parrel bands are rigid and made of stainless rod. Parrel beads are made of starboard. Gaff saddle is lined with felt. This arrangement as been absolutely free of sticking or jamming.

Yep, PT in background.

Steve

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