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Old 02-08-2015, 19:26   #166
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Here's a photo of Herreshoff's Amaryllis, a boat which cleaned the clocks of a lot wealthy industrialists in the New York Centennial Race some hundred and fifty years ago which subsequently resulted in multihulls being banned from competition for a very long time.

It didn't have a free standing rig but I am posting it anyway to make a point about cultural bias and prejudicial thinking. You see, despite their obvious virtues, multihulls continue to be scorned by some sailors even to this day.

Most humans really aren't very curious and many fear things they don't know or understand. It's just human nature. Despite the sad irony, this unfortunately includes many sailors too.

A shame really. Particularly when it come to freestanding rigs which really have a lot going for them. Cost has nothing to do with it unlike multihulls, which have multiple hulls and really are more expensive.
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Old 02-08-2015, 19:28   #167
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Yeah, 151 is a little light. Forgot to include the pins that hold my spreaders captive, nuts and washers on all the bolts on the chainplates, and a copious handful of cotter pins and split rings.

Did I mention my rigging is too old to take offshore and needs to be replaced? Sigh. Add that to the list of expenses...
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Old 02-08-2015, 19:39   #168
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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Originally Posted by Delancey View Post
Yeah, 151 is a little light. Forgot to include the pins that hold my spreaders captive, nuts and washers on all the bolts on the chainplates, and a copious handful of cotter pins and split rings. Did I mention my rigging is too old to take offshore and needs to be replaced? Sigh. Add that to the list of expenses...
bummer.

One of the things that makes me shudder is the potential cost to replace the standing rigging on a larger boat that has multiple masts, especially if the components are big and hard to source or must be replaced.

Not only the parts, but also the labor, and the "down time" need to be calculated and included in "cost" too.
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Old 02-08-2015, 19:56   #169
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Haha, add another 180 to that number if you want to count individual strands instead of the stays! Not like I didn't know what I was getting myself into so not complaining. 15 minutes of sailing is better than none at all!
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Old 02-08-2015, 20:54   #170
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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Hello Paul.

What follows is written in a truly friendly tone of voice. Like I wrote before, I have enjoyed reading several of your comments in other threads. My general sense is that you are a bright guy.

What follows will probably seem like criticism, but I assure you there is no malice and my intent is to help you and to prevent misunderstandings and hostility. I would also like to see this thread continue, with active participation by members who do have a Free Standing Mast boat, or a strong interest in buying one.

I have given some thought about how to reply to several of your posts in this thread and have considered how to word things to be clear and yet to keep this as brief as possible too.

I am not writing this to start an argument with you and will not enter into an argument with you, because I think it would be a waste of my time and effort. I prefer to spend my time helping others here learn about things and presenting facts when possible. I come here to enjoy learning, and am not here to engage in fruitless arguments.

So, why am I writing to you now (in public too)? I am writing this to help you avoid being seen as a troll by members of this forum.

Here are a few responses to what you wrote above and earlier and even after the above post:

1. Some of what you are writing in this thread strikes me as being "trolling" and aimed at starting arguments.

2. Some of what you have written fails to make sense to me (and others). I am apparently not the only experienced sailor in this thread who is having a problem understanding your critical statements about Free Standing Masts (FSM). Some of the statements appear to be just conjecture, some based on some unattributed reading, and some just seem "wrong" based on practical experience that other sailors here have.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but from reading your comments, I assume you are not an experienced boat builder or boat owner or naval architect. And apparently you are not an owner and experienced sailor of a Free Standing Mast boat. Why should that matter? Well, you seem to be criticizing the FSM and FSM boats without any experience (owning, sailing, or building them) on which to base your statements.

3. Your focus on the "economics" of some custom carbon fiber mast seems misplaced to me too. There are probably hundreds of Freedom boats (just one brand of boat with Free Standing Masts) and they are successfully sailing and enjoyed by their owners. Most have been sailing for about 20-30 years without needing to replace the mast and with NO need to replace shrouds, stays, chainplates or the other hardware that a Stayed Mast requires.

Those same boats were bought and considered a "good choice" when purchased. If you doubt that, then go to the owner's forum for Freedom boats and pitch your "economic" argument about Free Standing Masts being "not as good as a stayed mast" there and see how far it goes.

4. Are boats with Free Standing Masts (FSM) more expensive than a boat with a more common stayed rig? Perhaps initially. But, I believe that is not the real issue. The buyers of a boat like a Freedom or Nonsuch are looking at those boats and weighing many factors in their purchase decision. As I mentioned before, each boat is a compromise, and to the buyers of the Freedoms and other similar boats, they have weighed what they think are the important points and made their purchase.

The people who buy or build these boats may buy them for the benefits of the Free Standing Mast, but there are other differences in boats too, and they recognize they may be making some compromise on something else.

Are all boats with a Free Standing Mast expensive?

Some custom boats and extreme boats can be. But I don't think ALL FSM boats are more expensive or even expensive.

Yesterday, while looking for a good example to post in this thread, I came across several FSM boats (Freedom 28s) that can be purchased today (used) for just about $12,000. Those are Cat Ketches too. So, the buyer gets "two carbon fiber masts" and a boat for just $12,000. Yes, someone can purchase a similar length and age boat for less than $12,000. But, it will not be the same boat or same rig or same make or same combination of features.

I also came across a Steel Hull Bruce Roberts boat, (2005) boat (36 feet) that had TWO Free Standing Masts (Junk Rig). They appear to be metal masts (probably aluminum). The cost for that boat, which was fully equipped for cruising? Just $35,000.

With a larger budget, one can purchase a used Freedom 36 or 38 for significantly less than $100K (roughly $36K - $50K) depending upon the year/model. So, for a very nicely equipped and built boat that DOES have a Carbon Fiber Mast, I think that is not "expensive." It may not be affordable to some members, but I think it is a very competitive and reasonable price level for the quality and size and distinctive features of those boats.

____

I have bolded a few points you made in your comment (quoted above). When I read them, I chuckled. Putting it simply, I don't agree with you at all and found some of your statements "obviously mistaken," "laughable" or ridiculous.

But, given the open nature of a forum like this, I am sure some will think the same of my opinions and writing too.
_____

So, that leads me to conclude that you probably have less understanding about Free Standing Masts and rigs (and boats and their owners) than you might think you do, despite your posting a lot of technical stuff in this thread. I suspect that is because you lack practical sailing experience with a FSM boat.

I did go look at your CF Profile to see if it mentioned anything about sailing experience with a FSM boat, but unfortunately there is nothing written there that gives me any idea of your practical sailing experience with a FSM boat or any boats. So, I will have to assume "No Experience" is the answer.

Given the response (short ones) from some other members here (who I now have to suspect have much more sailing experience than you) I think it would be wise to learn some more rather than making absolute statements or statements that seem to other sailors to be mistaken or ridiculous. That is, if you want to be taken seriously.

And, like another member said, it does not do the forum any good to have people who spread misinformation.

I hope you will continue to participate in the forum and even in this thread. But, I do hope you will consider your posts carefully and consider that other members here, especially the owners of boats like the Freedom boats, have a very different POV and their statements are probably based on their actual experience with their boats and with the Free Standing Mast rig.

Lest you think I don't follow my own advice, let me state clearly here: Despite my own experience sailing on many boats, I don't feel qualified to criticize a FSM sailor (and their boat's sailing capability), or their boats value or performance, because I do not have the same experience they have sailing a cruising size FSM boat.

I hope this post helps you and other members continue to enjoy this discussion thread.
I am very happy that I was able to make you chuckle Steady Hand and you are forgiven for making reference to me in the same sentence as a troll with all the inference that this implies because I understand it is very common for people when faced with an alternative view point to cash in on this troll reference rather than debate the logic and rational that is presented in discussion. I dare even say I am guilty of this myself sometimes but I tend to resist temptation and respect a persons view and challenge it with objectivity and not subjectivity if I do not agree. I do not need to see reference of a persons boat to be able to argue a point with them on engineering nor do I need to see reference of their last expedition to the north pole to warrant a discussion with them to do with the economies of scale governing market sectors and design trends. These are discrete sub topics in their own right. I have not revealed anything about me via my profile on purpose and if you wish to make any assumptions about me based on this then feel free but just keep in mind assumptions never fill in a missing truth accept with another missing truth.

To my mind the advocate of a theory or point of view can hardly be blamed for the responses they receive in reply. I certainly would not reply in such a curt way but never the less I see no reason why I should change my philosophy of thought to fit in with those that have a different one. This would really undermine the purpose of discussion and debate and make the idea of forum exchange quite pointless. I find it quite strange that to make your point you needed to present peoples curt replies rather than segments of my own, rather pleasant posts if I may say so for what seems simply the crime of an alternative viewpoint.

There are guidelines here SteadyHand and if you feel that you have seen an infringement on my part then it maybe better to just take it up with admin who occupy a neutral status for very good reason(which of course is available to every one individually) because I can not see anything wrong with my posts what so ever other than they conflict with your view. In fact I would prefer this mode in the future if you don't mind because singling me out this way in a public forum is kind of bullying and unjust punishment beyond your remit and gives licence to others to do similar. Clearly I can not accept that and would ask you to refrain from doing so in the future. My judge and jury here, as is yours is admin so please use the proper channels as I really do not wish to be the focus of your sermons from your own pulpit any more if that's ok with you.

I have tried your public approach to arbitration but it is impossible not to be bias Steady Hand and I understand you are excited and enthusiastic about this new OP you started but this sub post is a post too far and I take it very very personally.

Sincerely...
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Old 02-08-2015, 23:01   #171
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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... but this sub post is a post too far and I take it very very personally. Sincerely...
Yea, you made a good point, Paul, two in fact, strongly argued - don't ruin it by forcing the issue or we'll start to think you're a salesman for Jenneau!
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Old 02-08-2015, 23:08   #172
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delancey View Post
Yeah, 151 is a little light. Forgot to include the pins that hold my spreaders captive, nuts and washers on all the bolts on the chainplates, and a copious handful of cotter pins and split rings.

Did I mention my rigging is too old to take offshore and needs to be replaced? Sigh. Add that to the list of expenses...
I'll chime in with a mast concept that falls somewhere between a Free Standing Rig and a conventional modern Marconi rig: a "lightly stayed mast". This is a mast that is usually round in cross section, heavier than a Marconi but lighter than a Free Standing Mast. The mast will be keel stepped with strong partners, so think of the lower half of the mast to be sort of freestanding. Shrouds (as few as two) terminate well below the mast head therefore requiring the mast to support itself above the hounds. No spreaders, No lowers, No backstay. Aluminum water pipe is the typical material so cost is very, very reasonable.

I suppose that a Marconi main sail could be used with this type of mast but I have never seen it done except on small day sailors. This style of mast is well suited to the older sail types (Gaff, Junk, Lug, etc.) because their luffs are short enough to fit bellow the hounds and still have an adequate amount of Sail area. A marconi main would require a sail track and this goes against the whole spirit of the simple, low parts count, home made approach (creed).

Because the shroud hounds are in the vicinity of the top of the fore-stay (and the mast is stiff), a fair amount of head-stay tension is possible thus allowing for a reasonably well shaped jib when beating.

I built Panope's rig using the above strategy not because of any particular rationale. It was about familiarity. That type of rig is all that I had ever sailed and it is what I know how to do (I also think these old-style, tuff as nails rigs look cool). There is no doubt that if I had grown-up sailing modern marconi, then that is what I would have built.

Panope's mast and supporting hardware parts count:

-1 water pipe (I got fancy with a tapered top but this is only for show)(also did a tabernacle but that is also entirely optional).

-1 aluminum disk (masthead cap, welded)

-2 chunks of aluminum (hounds) welded to mast.

-3 galvanized wire ropes (2 shrouds, 1 fore-stay). Top ends have loops that pass around the mast and bear on the hounds.

-6 Nicopress sleeves and 3 thimbles (should have just spliced the ends).

-2 short segments of larger (than mast) aluminum pipe. One welded to deck (partners) the other welded to a keel frame (step).

-3 chunks of aluminum welded to gunnel - Chainplates.

-3 Galvanized industrial turnbuckles.

-6 cotter pins.

Total = 27 parts supporting 680 square feet of sail.

Steve

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Old 03-08-2015, 04:09   #173
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

So far we've had Freedoms, Hoyt Offsets, Wishbones, Junk (Chinese Lug), Ljungström, but shouldn't forget the many other iterations of rigs on freestanding masts. About the only one that comes to mind not yet mentioned is the Crabclaw....and the following traditionals:

First, an article about tuning traditional rigs such as balanced lug and spritsails. Lots of useful info and links there:
Tuning and setting up lug and sprit sails and rigs for performance - Boomed vs Boomless - Storer Wooden Boat Plans

A little more about the spritsail, and most importantly a link to a pdf about how a few rigs performed in testing....the results may surprise:
The amazing Spritsail, a forgotten jewel.

A general info page on a few small boat rigs:
Sailing by E.F. Knight. Chapter 5
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Old 03-08-2015, 04:23   #174
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panope View Post
I'll chime in with a mast concept that falls somewhere between a Free Standing Rig and a conventional modern Marconi rig: a "lightly stayed mast". This is a mast that is usually round in cross section, heavier than a Marconi but lighter than a Free Standing Mast. The mast will be keel stepped with strong partners, so think of the lower half of the mast to be sort of freestanding. Shrouds (as few as two) terminate well below the mast head therefore requiring the mast to support itself above the hounds. No spreaders, No lowers, No backstay. Aluminum water pipe is the typical material so cost is very, very reasonable.

I suppose that a Marconi main sail could be used with this type of mast but I have never seen it done except on small day sailors. This style of mast is well suited to the older sail types (Gaff, Junk, Lug, etc.) because their luffs are short enough to fit bellow the hounds and still have an adequate amount of Sail area. A marconi main would require a sail track and this goes against the whole spirit of the simple, low parts count, home made approach (creed).

Because the shroud hounds are in the vicinity of the top of the fore-stay (and the mast is stiff), a fair amount of head-stay tension is possible thus allowing for a reasonably well shaped jib when beating.

I built Panope's rig using the above strategy not because of any particular rationale. It was about familiarity. That type of rig is all that I had ever sailed and it is what I know how to do (I also think these old-style, tuff as nails rigs look cool). There is no doubt that if I had grown-up sailing modern marconi, then that is what I would have built.

Panope's mast and supporting hardware parts count:

-1 water pipe (I got fancy with a tapered top but this is only for show)(also did a tabernacle but that is also entirely optional).

-1 aluminum disk (masthead cap, welded)

-2 chunks of aluminum (hounds) welded to mast.

-3 galvanized wire ropes (2 shrouds, 1 fore-stay). Top ends have loops that pass around the mast and bear on the hounds.

-6 Nicopress sleeves and 3 thimbles (should have just spliced the ends).

-2 short segments of larger (than mast) aluminum pipe. One welded to deck (partners) the other welded to a keel frame (step).

-3 chunks of aluminum welded to gunnel - Chainplates.

-3 Galvanized industrial turnbuckles.

-6 cotter pins.

Total = 27 parts supporting 680 square feet of sail.

Steve

Gosh, you built that yourself? Aren't you afraid? It could fail with lethal consequences! I would feel much safer if it was made from carbon and really expensive.

Just kidding. Love it. How did you make the parrel bands? With beads? Always wondered if you couldn't you Dyneema a soft shackles, you know how it has that kind of slippery feel to it?

Is that PT in the background?
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Old 03-08-2015, 04:34   #175
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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Originally Posted by micah719 View Post
So far we've had Freedoms, Hoyt Offsets, Wishbones, Junk (Chinese Lug), Ljungström, but shouldn't forget the many other iterations of rigs on freestanding masts. About the only one that comes to mind not yet mentioned is the Crabclaw....and the following traditionals:

First, an article about tuning traditional rigs such as balanced lug and spritsails. Lots of useful info and links there:
Tuning and setting up lug and sprit sails and rigs for performance - Boomed vs Boomless - Storer Wooden Boat Plans

A little more about the spritsail, and most importantly a link to a pdf about how a few rigs performed in testing....the results may surprise:
The amazing Spritsail, a forgotten jewel.

A general info page on a few small boat rigs:
Sailing by E.F. Knight. Chapter 5
Helped a friend build a dinghy with a sprit rig including building a carbon mast for it. We used a broken carbon windsurfer mast for the sprit. That was a long time ago, wish I had pictures....
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Old 03-08-2015, 04:58   #176
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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Yea, you made a good point, Paul, two in fact, strongly argued - don't ruin it by forcing the issue or we'll start to think you're a salesman for Jenneau!
While I have your attention can I interest you Jeanneau 41 DS. Low mileage and just one lady owner...
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Old 03-08-2015, 05:48   #177
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Several references, or more correctly ‘speculations’ has been made to cost of stayed vs unstayed mast(s)
However has anyone done a real comparison? Ie with same or similar boat/hull difference in purchase price? I know of only one boat that has been rigged traditionally and as a cat ketch: that was the Ta Chiao 44, sold as Tanton 43 and later Tanton 45 (?extended version) TANTON 43 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
, and as a sloop/cutter as a CT 44 CT-44 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
Would it not be nice then to have $ figures rather than opinions? Even better still, could we bring together somewhere on the globe one yacht of each type, and sail them together and compare performances and ease of sail/boat handling? Maybe it has been done already, but I am not aware of that.
If that could be done I will be certainly traveling to such occasion, where ever it is !
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Old 03-08-2015, 06:11   #178
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Bit like apples and oranges to compare different boats from different builders. Even harder to compare used of the same make boats based on asking price when so much depends on condition and pride. FWIW here's two Tantons, one cat ketch and the other a sloop rigged Marconi for basically the same price. I know which one I would pick.

1981 Tanton 43 sailboat for sale in Alabama

1982 ta chiao 44 Tanton sailboat for sale in Outside United States
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Old 03-08-2015, 06:58   #179
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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Originally Posted by HankOnthewater View Post
Several references, or more correctly ‘speculations’ has been made to cost of stayed vs unstayed mast(s)
However has anyone done a real comparison? Ie with same or similar boat/hull difference in purchase price? I know of only one boat that has been rigged traditionally and as a cat ketch: that was the Ta Chiao 44, sold as Tanton 43 and later Tanton 45 (?extended version) TANTON 43 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
, and as a sloop/cutter as a CT 44 CT-44 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
Would it not be nice then to have $ figures rather than opinions? Even better still, could we bring together somewhere on the globe one yacht of each type, and sail them together and compare performances and ease of sail/boat handling? Maybe it has been done already, but I am not aware of that.
If that could be done I will be certainly traveling to such occasion, where ever it is !
That would be a very interesting exercise to do.

Its quite hard to find a price index but I did find a reference to carbon mast construction costs from Eric Sponberg himself.

He estimated that as an amateur build the cost of a rig for a freedom 40 would be about 40k dollars for each mast and then 20k for each boom and sail.

He further adds that he would not recommend it as DIY job because of the complexity involved so the commission from a fabricator if we were to add some profit margin in would come out at around 110 k dollars for the masts plus 2 times boom and sail. He mentions a cost of 20k four years ago so lets say 50k for both with inflation giving an estimate of 170k for a free standing rig on a new boat. Lets put here a margin of error of say 15%.

So what does the freedom 40 hull cost fitted out? or any 40 foot hull fitted out. Lets add this to the mast construction costs and then we could determine what you could buy for that same price if you were to buy a stayed rig instead.

Or we could let the fitted hulls cancel themselves with respect to cost because the free standing mast has the complexity of mast retention and like wise so would a stayed mast with its need for chain plates.

So what would a sloop stayed rig cost for a 40 foot boat?
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Old 03-08-2015, 07:09   #180
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

To Panope (Steve):

Thanks for adding the nice photo, great description of how you made your own mast, and the very good information related to the cost of a suitable (and admirable) home-built mast in aluminum.

The "fewer bits" part of the post is good too and does reinforce the concept of simple solutions.

I also like that you brought up the point that there are some variations (of FSM) worth noting.
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