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Old 02-08-2015, 15:38   #151
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

151 individual parts - 1 = 0

Also, we all seem to have logged in and are posting all at the same time, so I'll go work on the Buffagull breeding programme and come back later....wish me luck. Should it be a mammal, or retain the weight savings of egg-laying? Also, should it be an omnivorous scavenger like the gull, or herbivorous like the buffalo? Decisions, decisions...
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Old 02-08-2015, 16:12   #152
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
Don't focus too much on my use of bendy. It is just my cheeky catch all word for free standing mast Steady Hand.

Anyway, by any definition of the word I would suggest free standing rigs when measured against the vast number of stayed rigs we have has to be considered "unconventional". However, this does not mean I am saying that being unconventional is a bad thing or in fact that a free standing rig is "physically" a bad performer by comparison to a stayed mast. What I am saying if I may coin a Darwinian analogy for a moment is that the economic proposition presented by free standing masts due to the inherent engineering problem does not exactly provide for free standers to be the fittest of the species economically.

It is also especially difficult for the free standing masts to justify themselves on that middle ground of second gear where a normal stayed mast can complement power with a foresail yet a free standing mast need either a taller mast or a mizzen mast.

This is somewhat of a guesstimate but I am suggesting a free standing boat designed from the bottom up is going to be 20% more in capital cost than a stayed boat, especially when we are focussing around 45 foot and have to consider the need for two un-stayed masts to provide the power we need. - Big cost!

In the real world this means I could buy a bigger boat for the same price if I was to choose instead a stayed rig and take the advantages of scale that a bigger boat would provide. Sure I would have the headache of a stayed mast but it would still be the best option for most because it translates to greater hull length. Yep, Some will go for a free standing mast option but they will be small in number and this is what we see in the real world too.

I take on board your points about Junks etc but I am not sure it is so relevant. Modern junks are motor sailors really and I am not so sure an old fashion ocean going sailing junk was not stayed anyway.

My point is simple really in its motion that dollar for dollar, choosing the stayed option will get you a bigger boat which in turn would give you generally better performance than the smaller un-stayed boat. It may seem unfair to use money as the indexing bench mark but we have no choice and is why we don’t see the un-stayed boat in equal numbers to that of stayed because the price points and economics are simply not justifiable.

It makes no sense to buy a boat with free standing mast because at this time you could always buy a bigger and better boat with a non free standing mast for the same money.
Hello Paul.

What follows is written in a truly friendly tone of voice. Like I wrote before, I have enjoyed reading several of your comments in other threads. My general sense is that you are a bright guy.

What follows will probably seem like criticism, but I assure you there is no malice and my intent is to help you and to prevent misunderstandings and hostility. I would also like to see this thread continue, with active participation by members who do have a Free Standing Mast boat, or a strong interest in buying one.

I have given some thought about how to reply to several of your posts in this thread and have considered how to word things to be clear and yet to keep this as brief as possible too.

I am not writing this to start an argument with you and will not enter into an argument with you, because I think it would be a waste of my time and effort. I prefer to spend my time helping others here learn about things and presenting facts when possible. I come here to enjoy learning, and am not here to engage in fruitless arguments.

So, why am I writing to you now (in public too)? I am writing this to help you avoid being seen as a troll by members of this forum.

Here are a few responses to what you wrote above and earlier and even after the above post:

1. Some of what you are writing in this thread strikes me as being "trolling" and aimed at starting arguments.

2. Some of what you have written fails to make sense to me (and others). I am apparently not the only experienced sailor in this thread who is having a problem understanding your critical statements about Free Standing Masts (FSM). Some of the statements appear to be just conjecture, some based on some unattributed reading, and some just seem "wrong" based on practical experience that other sailors here have.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but from reading your comments, I assume you are not an experienced boat builder or boat owner or naval architect. And apparently you are not an owner and experienced sailor of a Free Standing Mast boat. Why should that matter? Well, you seem to be criticizing the FSM and FSM boats without any experience (owning, sailing, or building them) on which to base your statements.

3. Your focus on the "economics" of some custom carbon fiber mast seems misplaced to me too. There are probably hundreds of Freedom boats (just one brand of boat with Free Standing Masts) and they are successfully sailing and enjoyed by their owners. Most have been sailing for about 20-30 years without needing to replace the mast and with NO need to replace shrouds, stays, chainplates or the other hardware that a Stayed Mast requires.

Those same boats were bought and considered a "good choice" when purchased. If you doubt that, then go to the owner's forum for Freedom boats and pitch your "economic" argument about Free Standing Masts being "not as good as a stayed mast" there and see how far it goes.

4. Are boats with Free Standing Masts (FSM) more expensive than a boat with a more common stayed rig? Perhaps initially. But, I believe that is not the real issue. The buyers of a boat like a Freedom or Nonsuch are looking at those boats and weighing many factors in their purchase decision. As I mentioned before, each boat is a compromise, and to the buyers of the Freedoms and other similar boats, they have weighed what they think are the important points and made their purchase.

The people who buy or build these boats may buy them for the benefits of the Free Standing Mast, but there are other differences in boats too, and they recognize they may be making some compromise on something else.

Are all boats with a Free Standing Mast expensive?

Some custom boats and extreme boats can be. But I don't think ALL FSM boats are more expensive or even expensive.

Yesterday, while looking for a good example to post in this thread, I came across several FSM boats (Freedom 28s) that can be purchased today (used) for just about $12,000. Those are Cat Ketches too. So, the buyer gets "two carbon fiber masts" and a boat for just $12,000. Yes, someone can purchase a similar length and age boat for less than $12,000. But, it will not be the same boat or same rig or same make or same combination of features.

I also came across a Steel Hull Bruce Roberts boat, (2005) boat (36 feet) that had TWO Free Standing Masts (Junk Rig). They appear to be metal masts (probably aluminum). The cost for that boat, which was fully equipped for cruising? Just $35,000.

With a larger budget, one can purchase a used Freedom 36 or 38 for significantly less than $100K (roughly $36K - $50K) depending upon the year/model. So, for a very nicely equipped and built boat that DOES have a Carbon Fiber Mast, I think that is not "expensive." It may not be affordable to some members, but I think it is a very competitive and reasonable price level for the quality and size and distinctive features of those boats.

____

I have bolded a few points you made in your comment (quoted above). When I read them, I chuckled. Putting it simply, I don't agree with you at all and found some of your statements "obviously mistaken," "laughable" or ridiculous.

But, given the open nature of a forum like this, I am sure some will think the same of my opinions and writing too.
_____

So, that leads me to conclude that you probably have less understanding about Free Standing Masts and rigs (and boats and their owners) than you might think you do, despite your posting a lot of technical stuff in this thread. I suspect that is because you lack practical sailing experience with a FSM boat.

I did go look at your CF Profile to see if it mentioned anything about sailing experience with a FSM boat, but unfortunately there is nothing written there that gives me any idea of your practical sailing experience with a FSM boat or any boats. So, I will have to assume "No Experience" is the answer.

Given the response (short ones) from some other members here (who I now have to suspect have much more sailing experience than you) I think it would be wise to learn some more rather than making absolute statements or statements that seem to other sailors to be mistaken or ridiculous. That is, if you want to be taken seriously.

And, like another member said, it does not do the forum any good to have people who spread misinformation.

I hope you will continue to participate in the forum and even in this thread. But, I do hope you will consider your posts carefully and consider that other members here, especially the owners of boats like the Freedom boats, have a very different POV and their statements are probably based on their actual experience with their boats and with the Free Standing Mast rig.

Lest you think I don't follow my own advice, let me state clearly here: Despite my own experience sailing on many boats, I don't feel qualified to criticize a FSM sailor (and their boat's sailing capability), or their boats value or performance, because I do not have the same experience they have sailing a cruising size FSM boat.

I hope this post helps you and other members continue to enjoy this discussion thread.
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Old 02-08-2015, 16:28   #153
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Thanks for your post, Steady. It's my impression, too, that PaulAnthony wants to be evocative to generate more discussion. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he's not a troll and that he is just as opinionated as most sailors with a subject they're so passionate about. I'm glad for this thread. I'm an inexperienced sailor, but after a couple of years with my Freedom, I feel a bit protective of its, umm, reputation

Now let's talk about downwind sailing in FSM boats!!
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Old 02-08-2015, 16:36   #154
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delancey View Post
Then of course there is the Hoyt Offset Rig by Gary Hoyt, no slouch at innovation.
Hi.
Thanks for posting this photo of the Hoyt Offset Rig (and the other photos and videos you posted earlier too). ALL of those posts are interesting content for this thread.

The Hoyt Offset Rig looks very appealing to me and interesting too. I like these aspects:

1. The sail foil is free from the mast. The foil shape is determined and floating free on the offset.

2. The mast can have an optional shroud of fabric (or some material) that creates a "foil" shape for the mast itself, making it much more aerodynamic (less drag turbulence).

Those two things look VERY smart to me. Seeing one in a large scale would be nice.

Also, there have been some interesting developments with making a FOIL shape with Junk Rigs too. I don't have the photos or notes handy today. Perhaps as this thread develops we can post some photos on those rig designs too.

Thanks for participating and contributing good stuff to this thread. I am sure I am not the only one who is enjoying the videos and photos.
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Old 02-08-2015, 16:41   #155
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Quote:
Originally Posted by micah719 View Post
There's one interesting rig we haven't covered yet:

Pdf warning!
http://www.junkrigassociation.org/Re...2020110722.pdf

Wikipedia warning!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ljungstrom_rig
Thanks for adding the info on these interesting rigs too. I learned about the Ljungstrom rig just yesterday (from you) and was amazed to see it. VERY different concept.

_____________

Hey Folks (Everybody), please try to post a photo whenever you can, because the Free Standing Mast boats come in many different types and sizes. It is VERY helpful to SEE a photo when making mention of something unusual.
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Old 02-08-2015, 16:46   #156
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scaramanga F25 View Post
Having had 5 fully wire or rod rigged from Heavy Cruiser to an Ultalite racer and finally a Freedom freestanding rig. I would never go back.

My choice if I went cruising full time again would be a freestanding masted cat-
ketch or schooner.
There is a fabulous one for sale in Fla. A noted Lavranos design, in S.A. steel, and has freestanding masts. It is available at Yachtworld. For only 39K$ it would be my choice and I would not feel the need to carry insurance.

Why? I no longer would stand for the constant worry of a small fitting, one of hundreds to fail as on my heavy cutter, as failure happens to the very best.

Go ahead and count all the bits on your boats.
Hello!

Thanks for adding your comments based on your own experience to this discussion!

I like your POV, and think you make a good point: "Count all the bits!"


__________

About that Lavranos boat? I have looked at it and commented on it before in the "for sale" classified post a few months ago. I like that boat too.
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Old 02-08-2015, 16:54   #157
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Quote:
Originally Posted by gamayun View Post
Thanks for your post, Steady. It's my impression, too, that PaulAnthony wants to be evocative to generate more discussion. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he's not a troll and that he is just as opinionated as most sailors with a subject they're so passionate about. I'm glad for this thread. I'm an inexperienced sailor, but after a couple of years with my Freedom, I feel a bit protective of its, umm, reputation

Now let's talk about downwind sailing in FSM boats!!
Hi Gamayun!

Hey, I am glad you are enjoying this thread (me too) and I hope we can ALL enjoy the thread as it develops, without ANYONE feeling trolled or criticized inappropriately.

There is SO MUCH we can discuss and SO MANY different boats that use Free Standing Masts (FSM).

You mentioned you have only had your Freedom for a couple of years. But, look at what you are doing with it! I am IMPRESSED that you do the singlehanded sailing of your boat (38 feet is not tiny) and that you RACE it too, especially as I know how challenging the San Francisco sailing environment can be.

It is probably not because of your boat choice, but I think it is GREAT that you are doing that (with any boat) and because you are doing it with a Freedom 38 it is cool for this thread too.

Let's keep the discussion going about those FSM boats!

As soon as possible, I will be adding some more visual content with more FSM boats. I encourage anyone reading this to do the same.
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Old 02-08-2015, 17:01   #158
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Quote:
Originally Posted by micah719 View Post
The freestanding mast is much simpler in design, build, install and run.
Whilst I may agree with install and run I am not sure I would agree with design and build. It's highly complex.

The following are the words of Eric Sponberg who also mentiond in the same post in 2011 that you are looking at about 40k dollars each to make the masts on a freedom 40 and then 20k for each boom and sail. 120k back in 2011.

Mast are highly loaded engineered structures. To get the most out of an expensive material like carbon fiber, you can't just lather up a tube and expect it to work. Every piece of fabric that goes into the mast is precisely engineered to its place, based on its width, ply thickness, length, and weight. All the pieces of fabric together make up the whole mast section which is sized to the strength and rigging arrangement of the boat at hand, and tapered appropriately for the optimum bend for a free-standing mast, or for column rigidity for a stayed mast. Every section of the mast, every foot along its length, is engineered to these parameters and the lay-up schedule drawn accordingly. The laminating process is important as well, whether wet lay-up or prepreg, so the timing of the fabrics going down and the type of cure and post-cure have to be specified and directions followed diligently.

I admire the desire of many people to contemplate building their own carbon fiber masts, but they are not easy structures to build. Failure of a mast can be lethal in many ways, and so it is not place to skimp, and it is also no place to make the structure too heavy since it often affects the stability of the boat, particularly monohulls.
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Old 02-08-2015, 17:04   #159
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Quote:
Originally Posted by micah719 View Post

SNIP

Captain Megabucks McMoney won't care. A lot of others will emulate them. They are faced with a cultural bias: this is how it's done and we've always done it that way and everyone else is doing it this way. There isn't much money in a robust easily repaired system accessible to the uneducated and poor. The jr won't win marconi races, but will last much longer and cost a fraction of the money and worry doing what it is designed for.

The industry that relies on the big money doesn't like it, and the folks actually using the stuff are the same folks that make decisions emotionally and not logically, unless forced to take a close look and ask the important questions; not simply recite rote answers because that's how everyone else does it. There'd be a lot more folks cruising for longer, if they'd match their gear and procedures to what they are trying to do, rather than shoehorn themselves into someone else's expectations, cash-registers and egos.

The Freedom rig seems like a hybrid of JR and Bermudan....it hasn't had a lot of development, but it has promise. For instance, a Freedom-JR conversion wouldn't be hard at all, it is even conceivable to have both on the same boat; two rigs, for different purposes, though the trouble would be mostly academic. JR man isn't about to swap out his lounge-lizard gear without a good reason.

SNIP
Micah,

Thank you for taking the time to write your long comment above (excerpted by me). I enjoyed reading it.

Having done some reading on Junk Rigs before, I enjoyed reading your abbreviated version of its main competitor (Marconi Bermudan rigs).

I like your bolded point about "Doing what its designed to do."

I have several times seen comments from experienced circumnavigators (and I think Barnakiel was the most recent) that say something like:

"For the Coconut Run Circumnavigators going with the trade winds, a Junk Rig may be the optimum rig for mostly downwind sailing."

Consequently, I look at the different rigs and weigh their differences against the type of sailing I want to do in the future and where and how I want to go.

But, I have to admit I am also a sucker for a traditional Gaff Rigged Pilot Cutter with a LONG bowsprit and 3 foresails a flying!
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Old 02-08-2015, 17:13   #160
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Quote:
Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
I've sailed a Freedom 45 before. Good boat. Never had a chance to push it in heavy conditions, but sailed well in 15-20 knots of wind and modest seas.

Sloop rig with camber spar jib. Very easy to handle.
Hi BelizeSailor.

Thanks for joining the conversation.

I have wondered about those spar jibs on some of the Freedom models.

I saw a photo the other day (will try to relocate and post it later in thread, perhaps in a day or so) showing the jib spar and another pole that looked like it would be a a extending bowsprit of some kind (hard to tell in photo).

When I post the photo of the Jib Spar, I hope you and others can comment on it and how it was to use etc.
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Old 02-08-2015, 17:20   #161
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptPFD View Post
Eclipse, a Freedom 32 freestanding rig has served me well for over 30 years and has seen her share of blows... never a doubt about her overbuilt mast.. and usually one of the last to reef...
Ahoy CaptPFD!

Over 30 years with your FSM! Now THAT is some experience worth sharing with us who have less or little or no experience with the rig.

Please share with us what you can.


Also, when I looked at some Freedom 32 boats, I got a very positive impression of the boats due to the interior layout, size or space inside, and the fit out or quality of the cabinetry or furniture or craftsmanship of the wood (inside). They looked "liveable" to me, and much nicer than many other boats I have seen at about that size.
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Old 02-08-2015, 17:49   #162
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delancey View Post
I counted, my nothing special double spreader rig with double lowers has 151 individual parts. That's just the mast and what holds it up. Boom or running rigging not included.
WOW!

That is more bits than I expected!


Good to know. Thanks for posting that info.

________________________

This also leads me to make a post I have wanted to make related to small bits of rig.

True Story: I was reading about a man who wanted to do a NONSTOP singlehanded unassisted circumnavigation.

He prepared for years to do this. Modified and refitted his boat. Prepared himself mentally and in other ways. He began his journey and was about 3/4 of the way around the world, doing just great.

Then, he noticed a SINGLE broken wire on his rig. One of his shrouds had a single broken wire in the stainless wire shroud. A single small wire in a wire shroud! He decided that it was not worth the risk to lose his rig (and possibly boat and life) during the next leg of his Circumnavigation (the notorious Indian Ocean leg as I recall) so he aborted his voyage.

That made me think: "A SINGLE TINY BROKEN WIRE stopped a focused, prepared, driven and experienced sailor!"

Which led me to think: It is smart to reduce the possible points of failure of key or vital systems (e.g. a rig) to a minimum, or have redundancy.

Put another way, it means the smallest of things in a non-redundant complex system can cause a failure and possibly disaster. Therefore, simple systems (rigs) have a real advantage when considering potential reliability.

Consequently, I began to look at the Junk Rig and "simple" rigs including the FSM concepts as more appealing and with new appreciation because of their fewer "moving parts" or "fallible" parts.

This does not mean I would not sail on a boat that has a more complex or conventional "standard" stayed rig. But, I would prefer to keep the rig as simple as possible, rather than more complex, especially if singlehanded and especially when sailing far from any assistance or in challenging waters.

Those tiny bits, when they fail, can have big consequences.
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Old 02-08-2015, 18:19   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steady Hand
WOW! That is more bits than I expected! Good to know. Thanks for posting that info. ________________________ This also leads me to make a post I have wanted to make related to small bits of rig. True Story: I was reading about a man who wanted to do a NONSTOP singlehanded unassisted circumnavigation. He prepared for years to do this. Modified and refitted his boat. Prepared himself mentally and in other ways. He began his journey and was about 3/4 of the way around the world, doing just great. Then, he noticed a SINGLE broken wire on his rig. One of his shrouds had a single broken wire in the stainless wire shroud. A single small wire in a wire shroud! He decided that it was not worth the risk to lose his rig (and possibly boat and life) during the next leg of his Circumnavigation (the notorious Indian Ocean leg as I recall) so he aborted his voyage. That made me think: "A SINGLE TINY BROKEN WIRE stopped a focused, prepared, driven and experienced sailor!" Which led me to think: It is smart to reduce the possible points of failure of key or vital systems (e.g. a rig) to a minimum, or have redundancy. Put another way, it means the smallest of things in a non-redundant complex system can cause a failure and possibly disaster. Therefore, simple systems (rigs) have a real advantage when considering potential reliability. Consequently, I began to look at the Junk Rig and "simple" rigs including the FSM concepts as more appealing and with new appreciation because of their fewer "moving parts" or "fallible" parts. This does not mean I would not sail on a boat that has a more complex or conventional "standard" stayed rig. But, I would prefer to keep the rig as simple as possible, rather than more complex, especially if singlehanded and especially when sailing far from any assistance or in challenging waters. Those tiny bits, when they fail, can have big consequences.
Indeed, less is more. If safety is highly valued then a free standing mast makes sense because of the number of points of failure is minimal .
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Old 02-08-2015, 19:01   #164
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

In regards to cost there is a couple of ways to look at it. From a used boat perspective they are great value as not many buyers want a freestanding rig! Secondly in the case of freedoms they were build to a reasonably high quality and were a expensive build. Take the freedom 32 for example, find me a 32-38 foot boat of same vintage with the same amount of interior room and quality of build for the same price! Realistically the very good ones are selling for less than 40k US!
Ive attached a utube of Freeforms interior to give you a idea of space.
http://youtu.be/Th8aPlg710o

What I'm trying to say is the FSM often results in you getting more boat for your money!
Carbon fibre masts have come down in value , the below was taken from the freedom yacht forum in regards to replacing a mast on a freedom 35:

Assuming a righting moment of 5100 kg.m (based on other similar boats), 250mm diameter at base, 12000mm long.
- tapering
- freestanding,
- round X-section,
- filament wound carbon fibre
- with internal sail track (tube with slot style)
- no fittings
- around 35kg weight
- to suit Freedom 35 Cat Ketch

AUD $8,500 unfinished, or
$10,200 finished, plus shipping.

That's through Harryproa Aus. I seriously think that's great value. I do like Freedoms but I don't think they are the best boat in the world, as mentioned there are many boats I could own but for a cruising boat FSM have alot going for them, particularly not having rigging that can break. The only thing that worries me about my mast is a lighting strike. Carbon fibre is a great conductor but the expoxy holding it together is not.
Cheers Dale.



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Old 02-08-2015, 19:24   #165
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Re: Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

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Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post
...But, I have to admit I am also a sucker for a traditional Gaff Rigged Pilot Cutter with a LONG bowsprit and 3 foresails a flying!
I'll take a picture of you out there on that heaving bowsprit, lashing down the jib, as I cruise past wearing carpet slippers in my JR Jester lookalike! But yes, it's not all about dollars and sense - there's the warm fuzzy of owning and caring for a beautiful thing too.
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