Sailboat weight???

[OleH28]

I'm in the market for my FIRST sailboat.

I found one I like,

I don't have allot of sailing experience.

I WILL HAVE A SURVEY...

The boat is a PARKENS H28

When speaking with the owner, i was told

Basically, when the boat was put in the mold, we added extra glass, for strength. The whole boat is solid glass, no core. Claimed displacement 14k.

The regular ones are at 11k.

The boat also has solid teak interior..

Now first, I'm happy It has no core!
He claims it was built strong for a planned
Circumnavigation.

So, let's assume that the boat is a little heavier
Then normal. If it's sunk real low on it's waterline I'm passing....if its floating close to waterline,
I'll look.

With that said, if the weight is not silly over,
What can be done to help sailing performance
With, the rig, sails, lead, etc?

He claims with Genoa and main, 6 knots in standard wind. I love the idea of a robust build..
Because I plan on extended cruising..but I don't want to buy a porker, that won't move.

What says you?

[Bleemus]

Ask him to take you sailing.

[OleH28]

Originally Posted by Bleemus

Ask him to take you sailing.

Yep! Brilliant!

I don't have enough experience to know if the boat is sailing well....

I need to know what can be done with mods, if the current boats weight is keeping it from achieving its full potential

Thanks

[FSMike]

I don't really have an answer for you, but I would be hesitant to increase the weight of a Nathanael Herreshof design by what, about 25% +/- ?
I don't know more than the "wizard of Bristol" did about boat design.

[Jim Cate]

One always takes displacement numbers with a grain of salt, no matter where they come from! In this case, it is pretty unlikely that there could be 3000 lbs of extra glass in an H28 hull. I doubt if there is 3K lbs total there! Solid teak furniture can add weight, as can extra tankage (when full) and just a lot of cruising "stuff"... it all adds up.

I wonder where the owner got his 14K lbs number from? and if it was in "light ship" condition or fully laden. If from the load cells on a travel lift, well, they are notoriously inaccurate. And there are not all that many other means of weighing a boat in most places.

IMO, if the 11K and 14 K numbers are accurate and reflective of equal lading, that is on the order of a 25% increment in displacement, and that would indeed have a considerable affect upon sailing performance... one that could not be easily corrected by changes in sails. H28s are well thought of boats, but not flyers at the best of times. For me it would be a deal breaker, but YMMV.

Jim

[OleH28]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

One always takes displacement numbers with a grain of salt, no matter where they come from! In this case, it is pretty unlikely that there could be 3000 lbs of extra glass in an H28 hull. I doubt if there is 3K lbs total there! Solid teak furniture can add weight, as can extra tankage (when full) and just a lot of cruising "stuff"... it all adds up.

I wonder where the owner got his 14K lbs number from? and if it was in "light ship" condition or fully laden. If from the load cells on a travel lift, well, they are notoriously inaccurate. And there are not all that many other means of weighing a boat in most places.

IMO, if the 11K and 14 K numbers are accurate and reflective of equal lading, that is on the order of a 25% increment in displacement, and that would indeed have a considerable affect upon sailing performance... one that could not be easily corrected by changes in sails. H28s are well thought of boats, but not flyers at the best of times. For me it would be a deal breaker, but YMMV.

Jim

I was thinking along the same lines...
It was bought as a kit and built.
He said last boat made out of mold.
Added some extra thickness in glass hull, deck...
But 2k worth of glass??? Thinking it might be a little salesmanship, which is okay. Would the boat company parkins in this case, allow something to hatch with 2k worth of extra glass..
Doesn't add up.

The boat was built to a very high standard, which tells me the man who built it had a clue
..

I have photos jim, if you would like me.to text them ,
I would value your opinion....if.your not to busy

Let me.know I got them on cell...

[OleH28]

Originally Posted by FSMike

I don't really have an answer for you, but I would be hesitant to increase the weight of a Nathanael Herreshof design by what, about 25% +/- ?
I don't know more than the "wizard of Bristol" did about boat design.

Haha! I don't like the wizard...he called my future boat a snot!

I joke! Kinda!.

[roverhi]

The wizard built very few fiberglass boats. Adding an extra layer of glass wouldn't add all that much weight to the boat. It is probably heavier but not all that critical as far as sailing ability. Our Westail kit was several inches down on her lines when launched but that had more to do with a 1,000#s of extra ballast. Hardwoods are heavier than fir plywood but not that much. if they'd used pressed board then the interior finish might have been significantly heavier but that doesn't sound like the case with this boat.

Biggest concern if the boat is significantly heavierthan designed displacement, is the various drains like cockpit and sinks being below or too close to the water level causing the leeward side to flood when the boat is heeled. If it's just a sink drain, a plug will stop the water ingress. Had to put a plug in our galley sink on stbd tack when the seas were rough. Another issue with cruising boats is all the stuff that comes aboard. When we were fully loaded, we were more than 4" down on our lines. Boat actually sailed better with the extra weight. If you are talking a multihull or light weight mono, extra weight could be a problem.

Originally Posted by FSMike

I don't really have an answer for you, but I would be hesitant to increase the weight of a Nathanael Herreshof design by what, about 25% +/- ?
I don't know more than the "wizard of Bristol" did about boat design.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by OleH28

Haha! I don't like the wizard...he called my future boat a snot!

I joke! Kinda!.

You forgot the "frozen"

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by OleH28

I was thinking along the same lines...
It was bought as a kit and built.
He said last boat made out of mold.
Added some extra thickness in glass hull, deck...
But 2k worth of glass??? Thinking it might be a little salesmanship, which is okay. Would the boat company parkins in this case, allow something to hatch with 2k worth of extra glass..
Doesn't add up.

The boat was built to a very high standard, which tells me the man who built it had a clue
..

I have photos jim, if you would like me.to text them ,
I would value your opinion....if.your not to busy

Let me.know I got them on cell...

Well, sure, I'd like to see them.. but post them here on the forum where everyone can see them. Lots of knowledgeable folks here, plenty that know more about these boats than I do.

Now, about the boat being built to a very high standard: when a well meaning amateur takes a well established design and "improves" it, warning flags go up in my mind. Quality of finish work... sure, there's a place where extra effort and better materials does add value. But increasing scantlings or messing with sail plans or stretching lines out or adding extra ballast... these things are seldom truly improvements, especially when the original designer is a genius!

I remember Art Piver, the early trimaran designer lamenting about all the amateurs who "improved" his designs and then bitched about poor performance. His boats were often built by novices; some turned out well, some not so well, but the ones where the scantlings were "improved" to make them "stronger for a RTW" were usually failures.

Don't get me wrong, your H28 may be in fact a jewel, and the displacement numbers distorted by bad data or misguided exaggeration, but I'd sure be careful in such a purchase.

Jim

[OleH28]

Thanks for your reply.

The more I think about it, it becomes simple...with help from this thread.


When I go, if I see the boat way low on her lines, then I'll know it's possibly a slug..

If it's okay on her lines, then it will be okay...i travel light...like freezed dry food, camp stoves etc..
Think ultra light camping type. I can and will lose weight off her...

Now, if anyone in the states wants to see some photos, and play I spy, good and bad with the photos....i would love some.experianced opinions! Lots going on here with her!

I'll send photos via text for now.

Thanks

[OleH28]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Well, sure, I'd like to see them.. but post them here on the forum where everyone can see them. Lots of knowledgeable folks here, plenty that know more about these boats than I do.

Now, about the boat being built to a very high standard: when a well meaning amateur takes a well established design and "improves" it, warning flags go up in my mind. Quality of finish work... sure, there's a place where extra effort and better materials does add value. But increasing scantlings or messing with sail plans or stretching lines out or adding extra ballast... these things are seldom truly improvements, especially when the original designer is a genius!

I remember Art Piver, the early trimaran designer lamenting about all the amateurs who "improved" his designs and then bitched about poor performance. His boats were often built by novices; some turned out well, some not so well, but the ones where the scantlings were "improved" to make them "stronger for a RTW" were usually failures.

Don't get me wrong, your H28 may be in fact a jewel, and the displacement numbers distorted by bad data or misguided exaggeration, but I'd sure be careful in such a purchase.

Jim

Photos...pick err' apart

[SteveInMD]

You ask what can be done to help sailing performance? Remove weight.

Just being overbuilt (rather than properly engineered) does not make a seaworthy vessel. Lots of extra glass could just be a sloppy build and not a benefit. Proper reinforcement in certain areas can certainly be a good thing, but these reinforcements should stand out and be notable, and not just lots of extra glass everywhere.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Well, sure, I'd like to see them.. but post them here on the forum where everyone can see them. Lots of knowledgeable folks here, plenty that know more about these boats than I do.

Now, about the boat being built to a very high standard: when a well meaning amateur takes a well established design and "improves" it, warning flags go up in my mind. Quality of finish work... sure, there's a place where extra effort and better materials does add value. But increasing scantlings or messing with sail plans or stretching lines out or adding extra ballast... these things are seldom truly improvements, especially when the original designer is a genius!

The OP said it is a Parkens H28 - presumably Parkins Marine. Hardly amateur build. They built about 30 of them in the 70s and 80s.

The original timber H28 had a design displacement of around 11,000 lbs, but the Parkins glass ones were considerably lighter at 9600 lbs.

[OleH28]

More photos