Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 25-09-2016, 17:23   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 28
Sailboat weight???

I'm in the market for my FIRST sailboat.

I found one I like,

I don't have allot of sailing experience.

I WILL HAVE A SURVEY...

The boat is a PARKENS H28

When speaking with the owner, i was told

Basically, when the boat was put in the mold, we added extra glass, for strength. The whole boat is solid glass, no core. Claimed displacement 14k.

The regular ones are at 11k.

The boat also has solid teak interior..

Now first, I'm happy It has no core!
He claims it was built strong for a planned
Circumnavigation.

So, let's assume that the boat is a little heavier
Then normal. If it's sunk real low on it's waterline I'm passing....if its floating close to waterline,
I'll look.

With that said, if the weight is not silly over,
What can be done to help sailing performance
With, the rig, sails, lead, etc?

He claims with Genoa and main, 6 knots in standard wind. I love the idea of a robust build..
Because I plan on extended cruising..but I don't want to buy a porker, that won't move.

What says you?
__________________

__________________
OleH28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2016, 18:57   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 660
Re: Sailboat weight???

Ask him to take you sailing.
__________________

__________________
Keth

Boat Vinyl Lettering and Graphics
Bleemus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2016, 19:01   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 28
Re: Sailboat weight???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleemus View Post
Ask him to take you sailing.
Yep! Brilliant!

I don't have enough experience to know if the boat is sailing well....

I need to know what can be done with mods, if the current boats weight is keeping it from achieving its full potential

Thanks
__________________
OleH28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2016, 19:09   #4
Senior Cruiser
 
FSMike's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Bahamas/Florida
Boat: Solaris Sunstar 36' catamaran
Posts: 2,654
Images: 5
Re: Sailboat weight???

I don't really have an answer for you, but I would be hesitant to increase the weight of a Nathanael Herreshof design by what, about 25% +/- ?
I don't know more than the "wizard of Bristol" did about boat design.
__________________
Sail Fast Live Slow
FSMike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2016, 19:19   #5
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,446
Re: Sailboat weight???

One always takes displacement numbers with a grain of salt, no matter where they come from! In this case, it is pretty unlikely that there could be 3000 lbs of extra glass in an H28 hull. I doubt if there is 3K lbs total there! Solid teak furniture can add weight, as can extra tankage (when full) and just a lot of cruising "stuff"... it all adds up.

I wonder where the owner got his 14K lbs number from? and if it was in "light ship" condition or fully laden. If from the load cells on a travel lift, well, they are notoriously inaccurate. And there are not all that many other means of weighing a boat in most places.

IMO, if the 11K and 14 K numbers are accurate and reflective of equal lading, that is on the order of a 25% increment in displacement, and that would indeed have a considerable affect upon sailing performance... one that could not be easily corrected by changes in sails. H28s are well thought of boats, but not flyers at the best of times. For me it would be a deal breaker, but YMMV.

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2016, 19:32   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 28
Re: Sailboat weight???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
One always takes displacement numbers with a grain of salt, no matter where they come from! In this case, it is pretty unlikely that there could be 3000 lbs of extra glass in an H28 hull. I doubt if there is 3K lbs total there! Solid teak furniture can add weight, as can extra tankage (when full) and just a lot of cruising "stuff"... it all adds up.

I wonder where the owner got his 14K lbs number from? and if it was in "light ship" condition or fully laden. If from the load cells on a travel lift, well, they are notoriously inaccurate. And there are not all that many other means of weighing a boat in most places.

IMO, if the 11K and 14 K numbers are accurate and reflective of equal lading, that is on the order of a 25% increment in displacement, and that would indeed have a considerable affect upon sailing performance... one that could not be easily corrected by changes in sails. H28s are well thought of boats, but not flyers at the best of times. For me it would be a deal breaker, but YMMV.

Jim

I was thinking along the same lines...
It was bought as a kit and built.
He said last boat made out of mold.
Added some extra thickness in glass hull, deck...
But 2k worth of glass??? Thinking it might be a little salesmanship, which is okay. Would the boat company parkins in this case, allow something to hatch with 2k worth of extra glass..
Doesn't add up.

The boat was built to a very high standard, which tells me the man who built it had a clue
..

I have photos jim, if you would like me.to text them ,
I would value your opinion....if.your not to busy

Let me.know I got them on cell...
__________________
OleH28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2016, 19:34   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 28
Re: Sailboat weight???

Quote:
Originally Posted by FSMike View Post
I don't really have an answer for you, but I would be hesitant to increase the weight of a Nathanael Herreshof design by what, about 25% +/- ?
I don't know more than the "wizard of Bristol" did about boat design.

Haha! I don't like the wizard...he called my future boat a snot!

I joke! Kinda!.
__________________
OleH28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2016, 19:53   #8
Senior Cruiser
 
roverhi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Kona, Hawaii, Carlsbad, CA
Boat: 1969 Pearson 35 #108 & 1976 Sabre 28
Posts: 6,003
Send a message via Yahoo to roverhi
Re: Sailboat weight???

The wizard built very few fiberglass boats. Adding an extra layer of glass wouldn't add all that much weight to the boat. It is probably heavier but not all that critical as far as sailing ability. Our Westail kit was several inches down on her lines when launched but that had more to do with a 1,000#s of extra ballast. Hardwoods are heavier than fir plywood but not that much. if they'd used pressed board then the interior finish might have been significantly heavier but that doesn't sound like the case with this boat.

Biggest concern if the boat is significantly heavierthan designed displacement, is the various drains like cockpit and sinks being below or too close to the water level causing the leeward side to flood when the boat is heeled. If it's just a sink drain, a plug will stop the water ingress. Had to put a plug in our galley sink on stbd tack when the seas were rough. Another issue with cruising boats is all the stuff that comes aboard. When we were fully loaded, we were more than 4" down on our lines. Boat actually sailed better with the extra weight. If you are talking a multihull or light weight mono, extra weight could be a problem.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FSMike View Post
I don't really have an answer for you, but I would be hesitant to increase the weight of a Nathanael Herreshof design by what, about 25% +/- ?
I don't know more than the "wizard of Bristol" did about boat design.
__________________
Peter O.
'Ae'a Pearson 35
roverhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2016, 19:53   #9
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,709
Re: Sailboat weight???

Quote:
Originally Posted by OleH28 View Post
Haha! I don't like the wizard...he called my future boat a snot!

I joke! Kinda!.
You forgot the "frozen"

__________________
StuM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2016, 20:01   #10
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,446
Re: Sailboat weight???

Quote:
Originally Posted by OleH28 View Post
I was thinking along the same lines...
It was bought as a kit and built.
He said last boat made out of mold.
Added some extra thickness in glass hull, deck...
But 2k worth of glass??? Thinking it might be a little salesmanship, which is okay. Would the boat company parkins in this case, allow something to hatch with 2k worth of extra glass..
Doesn't add up.

The boat was built to a very high standard, which tells me the man who built it had a clue
..

I have photos jim, if you would like me.to text them ,
I would value your opinion....if.your not to busy

Let me.know I got them on cell...
Well, sure, I'd like to see them.. but post them here on the forum where everyone can see them. Lots of knowledgeable folks here, plenty that know more about these boats than I do.

Now, about the boat being built to a very high standard: when a well meaning amateur takes a well established design and "improves" it, warning flags go up in my mind. Quality of finish work... sure, there's a place where extra effort and better materials does add value. But increasing scantlings or messing with sail plans or stretching lines out or adding extra ballast... these things are seldom truly improvements, especially when the original designer is a genius!

I remember Art Piver, the early trimaran designer lamenting about all the amateurs who "improved" his designs and then bitched about poor performance. His boats were often built by novices; some turned out well, some not so well, but the ones where the scantlings were "improved" to make them "stronger for a RTW" were usually failures.

Don't get me wrong, your H28 may be in fact a jewel, and the displacement numbers distorted by bad data or misguided exaggeration, but I'd sure be careful in such a purchase.

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2016, 20:06   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 28
Re: Sailboat weight???

Thanks for your reply.

The more I think about it, it becomes simple...with help from this thread.


When I go, if I see the boat way low on her lines, then I'll know it's possibly a slug..

If it's okay on her lines, then it will be okay...i travel light...like freezed dry food, camp stoves etc..
Think ultra light camping type. I can and will lose weight off her...

Now, if anyone in the states wants to see some photos, and play I spy, good and bad with the photos....i would love some.experianced opinions! Lots going on here with her!

I'll send photos via text for now.

Thanks
__________________
OleH28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2016, 20:13   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 28
Re: Sailboat weight???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Well, sure, I'd like to see them.. but post them here on the forum where everyone can see them. Lots of knowledgeable folks here, plenty that know more about these boats than I do.

Now, about the boat being built to a very high standard: when a well meaning amateur takes a well established design and "improves" it, warning flags go up in my mind. Quality of finish work... sure, there's a place where extra effort and better materials does add value. But increasing scantlings or messing with sail plans or stretching lines out or adding extra ballast... these things are seldom truly improvements, especially when the original designer is a genius!

I remember Art Piver, the early trimaran designer lamenting about all the amateurs who "improved" his designs and then bitched about poor performance. His boats were often built by novices; some turned out well, some not so well, but the ones where the scantlings were "improved" to make them "stronger for a RTW" were usually failures.

Don't get me wrong, your H28 may be in fact a jewel, and the displacement numbers distorted by bad data or misguided exaggeration, but I'd sure be careful in such a purchase.

Jim


Photos...pick err' apart
__________________
OleH28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2016, 20:13   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2014
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 45
Posts: 173
Re: Sailboat weight???

You ask what can be done to help sailing performance? Remove weight.

Just being overbuilt (rather than properly engineered) does not make a seaworthy vessel. Lots of extra glass could just be a sloppy build and not a benefit. Proper reinforcement in certain areas can certainly be a good thing, but these reinforcements should stand out and be notable, and not just lots of extra glass everywhere.
__________________
SteveInMD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2016, 20:20   #14
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,709
Re: Sailboat weight???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Well, sure, I'd like to see them.. but post them here on the forum where everyone can see them. Lots of knowledgeable folks here, plenty that know more about these boats than I do.

Now, about the boat being built to a very high standard: when a well meaning amateur takes a well established design and "improves" it, warning flags go up in my mind. Quality of finish work... sure, there's a place where extra effort and better materials does add value. But increasing scantlings or messing with sail plans or stretching lines out or adding extra ballast... these things are seldom truly improvements, especially when the original designer is a genius!
The OP said it is a Parkens H28 - presumably Parkins Marine. Hardly amateur build. They built about 30 of them in the 70s and 80s.

The original timber H28 had a design displacement of around 11,000 lbs, but the Parkins glass ones were considerably lighter at 9600 lbs.
__________________
StuM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2016, 20:23   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 28
Re: Sailboat weight???

More photos
__________________

__________________
OleH28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
sail, sailboat

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Volvo MD2 weight vs Md6a weight. gjordan Engines and Propulsion Systems 2 06-07-2012 00:23
True Cat Weight Limpet Multihull Sailboats 5 22-01-2007 01:02
Help Determine Spinnaker Fabric Weight Celeste General Sailing Forum 4 21-11-2006 17:17
Draft weight and depth whitecaps General Sailing Forum 3 08-07-2006 13:15
Instant Weight Loss GordMay Provisioning: Food & Drink 6 25-08-2005 01:34



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:29.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.