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Old 16-10-2012, 22:28   #31
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Re: Sailboat pricing

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Originally Posted by deluxe68 View Post
We have been eyeing Island Piglets for a while now and around a year and a half ago a 98 IP45 was at our dealer for $229K. After 6 months we looked at it and were told the owners would probably take $200K, six months ago the boat sold for $170K. This was with most of the similar boats in the US listing for $250K. So you never know what the buyer will take.
That's a classic case of two lines intersecting.

1 - The owner is paying dockage for 18 months
2 - The boat is in need of maintenance after 18 months

18 month is not a lot of time for a boat in this class to need 15k of maintenance and be a 30k dockage burden and need an 15k incentive to move it.
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Old 16-10-2012, 23:28   #32
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Re: Sailboat pricing

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Originally Posted by dsmastern View Post
I read it years ago, and saw quite a few flaws too.

I just have never saw any good reason to get into debt over something like a car, motorcycle or boat that loses it's value so rapidly.

I'll just stick to paying cash.

(And yes, my house, motorcycles, cars and boat are all debt free.)
Debt is just rented capital. For many people in many circumstances it makes sense.

I own my house, lake house, cars, and boats without any debt. An expert financial adviser would say that it's an inefficient use of capital. But for my particular circumstances - entrepreneur - lot of income one day, zippo the next - it does make sense, although I would be getting richer faster if the houses were mortgaged and the money were well invested. I keep my monthly expenses under tight control so that I can afford to work at something which does not always bring income every month. It's just different circumstances from many other people.

Of course for people with less income, which is not rising, using debt just to increase consumption beyond one's means is suicidal. That's again different circumstances.

By the way, it's "depreciating asset", not "depreciating liability". Just because it's depreciating does not necessarily mean it makes no sense to buy it with debt - again, depends on all the circumstances. But if it is depreciating faster than you are repaying the principle then, of course, you are digging yourself into a hole. But houses are also not guaranteed to retain their value, much less appreciate inevitably every year, as we know since 2008
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Old 17-10-2012, 07:09   #33
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Re: Sailboat pricing

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Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
I'm always thinking about cruisers and cruising lifestyles, and sometimes am thrown when someone makes counterpoints that are based on non-cruising usage. Your comments seem to be more relevant to someone who owns or wants to buy a boat for recreational purposes.

A cruiser does "absolutely" need to have a boat, and a cruiser living on his boat never "needs" to sell it unless he is no longer cruising.

My thinking on this is that there are people who live in a home or on a boat who will list it on the market at some outrageously jacked up price because (a) it costs nothing to do so, and (b) they have an outside hope that there is some buyer out there that wants a boat configured precisely as their boat is configured, and such a person will gladly pay the full retail value of that boat and all of it's accessories.

They then will take that money and turn it into another home or boat that meets their needs which is either larger, newer, or cheaper than the one they just sold.
We may have to disagree about the meaning of wants and needs. People can not live without things like oxygen, water, food, sleep and in some places shelter and clothing. The choice between food on the table and a boat to cruise on is a no brainer to me.

Only after basics are taken care of are things like boats considered. I would like to think I have a realistic plan about a boat, cruising, and a cruising lifestyle. I also thing I have some things in common with the OP.

While my first choice would be a Gunboat my bank account makes this unrealistic. There are a lot of things I like about a Corsair C31 including it fits my budget, even if it is only a bare bones cruiser. A Seawind is more expensive, but still in my budget, and offers much more features a cruiser would want.

I suspect the OP is in a similar position of looking for the best cruising boat that fits his budget. But in both our cases we can simply continue getting along without a new boat.
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Old 17-10-2012, 07:55   #34
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Re: Sailboat pricing

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Originally Posted by tomfl View Post
We may have to disagree about the meaning of wants and needs. People can not live without things like oxygen, water, food, sleep and in some places shelter and clothing. The choice between food on the table and a boat to cruise on is a no brainer to me.

Only after basics are taken care of are things like boats considered. I would like to think I have a realistic plan about a boat, cruising, and a cruising lifestyle. I also thing I have some things in common with the OP.

While my first choice would be a Gunboat my bank account makes this unrealistic. There are a lot of things I like about a Corsair C31 including it fits my budget, even if it is only a bare bones cruiser. A Seawind is more expensive, but still in my budget, and offers much more features a cruiser would want.

I suspect the OP is in a similar position of looking for the best cruising boat that fits his budget. But in both our cases we can simply continue getting along without a new boat.
If you don't have a boat you're not a cruiser, so definitionally a cruiser "needs" a boat.

In the original post, though, I was using "need" in the hyperbolic sense - you know, the way you "need" to have Season Pass on DirectTV. A cruiser "needs" to have a boat and "wants" to have his dream configuration, but you're right that there is no real "need" in a boat beyond it's ability to provide self shelter.

And that's the point about these sellers. They don't want to sell their boat at a reasonable price. They want to fish for a price that will come from that "perfect" buyer who "needs" that exact boat - an unlikely scenario, but meantime their unrealisitic listing is confusing the rest of us boat buyers.

This is made worse for us because we never see the properly priced boats. They appear on the web, then are delisted in week or two.

As a result, us boat shoppers only know how much is TOO much, but no way to know how much is the RIGHT amount.
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Old 17-10-2012, 08:04   #35
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pirate Re: Sailboat pricing

All boats have 3 prices...
The 1st...? What the owner thinks its worth...
The 2nd..? What the Broker thinks he can get....
The 3rd..? What you think its worth...
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Old 17-10-2012, 09:26   #36
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Re: Sailboat pricing

All boats have 3 prices...
The 1st...? What the owner thinks its worth...
equal to the amount of money he needs to get the boat he REALLY wants

The 2nd..? What the Broker thinks he can get....
equal to the amount of money you told him you can spend

The 3rd..? What you think its worth...
equal to the balance of your retirement account
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Old 17-10-2012, 12:11   #37
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Re: Sailboat pricing

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Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
Life is a depreciating liability. When you die, your assets go to your heirs, but your debts go back to your debtors!
Not always true. Me Missus used to be in the debt business (to folks with irregular and undocumented income) - 20% a month, and not much paperwork to support. debts got passed onto family - that sometimes earlier than the borrower envisaged.

The moral of the story is to be careful who you borrow from .
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Old 17-10-2012, 23:24   #38
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Regarding the 'needs' vs 'wants' discussion.
I do not own a home, or land. My wife and I divested a large amount of 'things' we had acquired over the years in order to help us realize our dream of cruising. So for me, yes I own a boat outright. It's 32 feet long and barely sleeps four (we have two children). Since they are getting older and our intention is to bring them along, We will NEED a bigger boat, not today, but soon.

Regarding the financing,
The majority of people in the US finance the purchase of their home. I see this as no different.
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Old 18-10-2012, 01:42   #39
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Re: Sailboat pricing

I think it all comes down to motivation…. both on the Seller and Buyer’s part.
I love StarGazer, but fun marine projects are keeping me far too busy to cruise and I am feeling guilty about her just sitting there.
If I did decide to sell, for me, getting maximum price is not as important as seeing her going to a good home.
What price is happiness and is the interest you pay on that compounded annually?
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Old 18-10-2012, 09:09   #40
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Re: Sailboat pricing

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Originally Posted by JRM View Post
Go with what makes you happy. Or, in some of our cases, what makes the wife happy...
JRM
Ding, ding, we have a winner!

This was my issue, I had very definite ideas what I wanted and was really starting to converge in my thinking ... then I ran out of time. So I got the boat that makes my wife happy, the one I happened to be standing in front of at the time, she giving no real thought to what she wanted other than "buy a boat". Very frustrating process for both of us. Like there can only be one Captain of a boat, there should only be one Captain of the boat buying process.

How did we do? We offered 55% or original ask (say from around January 2012 ) and 69% of revised ask (some time in the summer). We agreed on 58% of original ask before survey. Survey found a largish issue, so final agreed price was 52% of original ask.

How did we do? If we only put in another 50% of what was paid to fix the immediate pressing issues, and the engine, rigging, sails et al hold out reasonably well the next 5 years, then we did OK. That is the problem you don't know how for sure you did until 5 years out.

How did we do? If we find we like sailing as much as we think we will, this boat lasts us until "the one" comes around and we only lose $5K a year over 5 years at sell time, I'd be quite happy.

Boulter
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Old 18-10-2012, 11:18   #41
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Re: Sailboat pricing

IMHO there is a huge number of 'quality' boats on the market that are grossly overpriced (guess they were purchased at the boom time and with huge proportion of financing involved ...), even though over last couple of years we have all been said that it is a 'crisis' and 'buyers' time'. At the same time, there is a good number of quality, acceptably priced boats here too. The problem arises when the buyer is fixed on a specific make or model of a boat, rather than of actual qualities of a boat and a price bracket.

I would actually keep on searching and researching and hoping for the right boat, at the right price, to crop up. Make offers every time you find what you want but not at the 'right' price ...

And since one may never come thru, it makes good sense to keep an open mind and see if the qualities one is after can perhaps be gotten elsewhere, and cheaper.

b.
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Old 18-10-2012, 11:59   #42
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Re: Sailboat pricing

Quote:
Originally Posted by deluxe68 View Post
We have been eyeing Island Piglets for a while now and around a year and a half ago a 98 IP45 was at our dealer for $229K. After 6 months we looked at it and were told the owners would probably take $200K, six months ago the boat sold for $170K. This was with most of the similar boats in the US listing for $250K. So you never know what the buyer will take.
Yeah, about 26% lower than original asking... seems about right for a popular boat. A lessor known might be more like 35%. It's been said many times: "The first offer you get will be the best...."
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Old 18-10-2012, 12:03   #43
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Re: Sailboat pricing

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
All boats have 3 prices...
The 1st...? What the owner thinks its worth...
equal to the amount of money he needs to get the boat he REALLY wants

The 2nd..? What the Broker thinks he can get....
equal to the amount of money you told him you can spend

The 3rd..? What you think its worth...
equal to the balance of your retirement account
I view it more as:
The 1st...? What the BROKER thinks you want to hear to get the listing...
The 2nd..? What the Seller thinks he can live with now that the bottom job needs done and the moorage is adding up....
The 3rd..? whatever the market will bear.....
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