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Old 01-09-2016, 05:16   #136
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Re: Sailboat or trawler?

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Motorsailers: The worst of both worlds, they stink as a sailboat and stink as a powerboat.

The sales numbers confirm my statement.
You have to define what you mean by a motor sailer.

In fact your boat and my boat and 99% of CFer's "sailboats" are actually motorsailers -- they are designed to perform well and even make long passages under either motor or sail propulsion, and most are used more than 50% of the time with motor rather than sails.

I think this is great. I love to sail, but if I need to get 100 miles somewhere on a day with a dead calm, I just crank up the Yanmar and listen to it purr. Just because you love to sail doesn't mean you can't love diesel motors, too.

One really huge advantage of catamarans, that surprisingly no one seems to talk about, is that they are superlative motorboats. So a normal cruising catamaran is probably the ultimate motor sailer, with better motoring performance than any pure motor boat you can find, and usually acceptable sailing performance.

That Diesel Duck is really not a motor sailer, because the sail capability will be very modest. It's a trawler with some slight sailing ability. The rig doesn't look very good to me. Much better would be the 60' Diesel Duck with the schooner rig. A low split rig works well with that hull form. You can't sail upwind with it, but it should work well on a reach.

I don't agree that motor sailers are necessarily the "worst of both worlds". Most (and I mean probably more than 90%) of cruising sailboats are not really used upwind. It's just too hard to make a cruising boat capable of getting upwind efficiently. I know this because I've just spent more money than my first house cost, trying to get my boat capable of doing it. So the way most cruising boats are actually used is that they sail anytime they don't have to tack to get somewhere, and otherwise wait for a wind shift or motor against it. Which means that pretending that they are real sailboats intended to sail almost all the time is a waste; it would be better to give up the upwind ability completely and improve the motoring ability.

And that brings us back to split rigs, which are better in every way than sloops/cutters except for cost, and going upwind. So if you're resigned to motoring upwind, and don't mind spending the money, then you can have a nice ketch rig with millions of advantages when sailing off the wind.

When you give up upwind ability you can also give up light wind ability, and have a compact, easy to handle, and low windage rig which a higher wind range. Just motor if there's less than 10 knots of wind.

So I think that would be a really nice format for a long-distance cruising boat, I think:

* Powerful engine and lots of tankage
* Hundested propeller
* Pilothouse
* Modest sized ketch rig (but with a large mizzen, not the symbolic ones we see on Nauticats etc.)
* Lots of sail options for reaching and sailing downwind (fisherman, mizzen staysail, etc.)
* Modest beam and freeboard
* Sailboat type of bulb keel with spade rudder, not trawler type with barn door.

Is that a motor sailer? I don't think we have any really coherent definition.


It's funny, but that's quite like some Laurent Giles designed Moodys from the 1960's, which are still much prized and very expensive today. Some of them even had twin engines.
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Old 01-09-2016, 05:43   #137
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Re: Sailboat or trawler?

I mean the boats designed and marketed as motorsailers like the Nordhavn and the Shannon. Basically fat ass trawlers with a full sailing rig tacked on and not much of a keel.

If they try to sail, they go sideways. If they try to motor, they carry around all that extra windage.
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Old 01-09-2016, 05:49   #138
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Re: Sailboat or trawler?

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
I mean the boats designed and marketed as motorsailers like the Nordhavn and the Shannon. Basically fat ass trawlers with a full sailing rig tacked on and not much of a keel.

If they try to sail, they go sideways. If they try to motor, they carry around all that extra windage.
Yes, I agree with that. The Nordhavn looks pretty silly. If you intend to sail, then you need a keel which will work.
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