Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 23-10-2015, 15:27   #31
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,365
Re: Sail Options for 40' Cutter

I like about 115-120% on the furler with a staysail. Not too high cut like a yankee. The clew just reachable from the sidedeck. But if you are just coastal local sailing probably the 135 and forget the staysail.
The 120% allows you to sail in lighter air and to carry it up to a decent blow. 20-25. Everything is a compromise. The staysail alone with a double reef and you will be sailing fast and flat in 30-35 winds.
I've tried a few 115-120% partial furled in heavier air and they just don't set well. Tried foam luff and other things.
__________________

__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-2015, 15:44   #32
Registered User
 
TacomaSailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Burnt Store Marina, SW Florida
Boat: Caliber 40
Posts: 1,148
Re: Sail Options for 40' Cutter

RoverHi said:

"If you are going to sail the boat as a double headsail rig, that is with the staysail and jib both flying at the same time, you can get decent all around performance with a smaller jib. The slot between the staysail and the jib makes the sails more efficient than their square footage would indicate."

My extensive experience with our Caliber 40 has not found that to be true, at least with my sails on my Caliber 40.

All Doyle Offshore sails
Main & 135% Offshore RF & 130 square foot staysail
Main & 135% Offshore RF

All North custom sails
Big main & 120% Spectra genoa & 170 sq foot staysail
Big main & 120% Spectra genoa & stock 130 sq foot staysail
Big main & 120% Spectra genoa

Code 0 and 170 sq foot staysail on a beam reach

I tested for many dozens of sailing trips in conditions from 10 to 20 knots from hard on the wind to a broad reach.

I found no increase in VMG - that was the only thing I cared about - did the boat get to the target destination any faster?

The genoa & staysail combination probably works well with some boats but on my Caliber 40 - I find no advantage
__________________

__________________
TacomaSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-2015, 17:13   #33
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,365
Re: Sail Options for 40' Cutter

Quote:
Originally Posted by DDabs View Post
Do you really never use a staysail until 25+ knot winds? Why can't you use the sail in lighter air?
For me, I found it not worth dealing with under maybe 22 or so. You can use it, some say best on a reach. But you don't gain much if anything.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-2015, 18:40   #34
Registered User
 
SailRedemption's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: New Orleans
Boat: Kaufman 47
Posts: 779
Re: Sail Options for 40' Cutter

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
RoverHi said:

"If you are going to sail the boat as a double headsail rig, that is with the staysail and jib both flying at the same time, you can get decent all around performance with a smaller jib. The slot between the staysail and the jib makes the sails more efficient than their square footage would indicate."

My extensive experience with our Caliber 40 has not found that to be true, at least with my sails on my Caliber 40.

All Doyle Offshore sails
Main & 135% Offshore RF & 130 square foot staysail
Main & 135% Offshore RF

All North custom sails
Big main & 120% Spectra genoa & 170 sq foot staysail
Big main & 120% Spectra genoa & stock 130 sq foot staysail
Big main & 120% Spectra genoa

Code 0 and 170 sq foot staysail on a beam reach

I tested for many dozens of sailing trips in conditions from 10 to 20 knots from hard on the wind to a broad reach.

I found no increase in VMG - that was the only thing I cared about - did the boat get to the target destination any faster?

The genoa & staysail combination probably works well with some boats but on my Caliber 40 - I find no advantage
What are you using to remove your inner stay so easily? I have a 47' cutter, it came with a 130-140(maybe a size bigger, haven't measured it yet)genoa, Yankee jib, a staysail (not sure size but it's of heavier cloth) and sym spin and a headsail with 2 reef points.

I have misplaced the original bronze hifieild lever somehow. Was going to use a deadeye system with synthetic line instead if I can't ever find the stinking thing.

I don't know much about the sails as I have just started to be able to sail my boat from refit. I hope to measure everything next month.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk
__________________
SailRedemption is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2015, 12:33   #35
Registered User
 
TacomaSailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Burnt Store Marina, SW Florida
Boat: Caliber 40
Posts: 1,148
Re: Sail Options for 40' Cutter

"What are you using to remove your inner stay so easily?"

A stainless Hyfield lever.

All I have to do to install is (reverse order for removal):

- retrieve hyfield lever from anchor locker
- secure bottom of lever to foredeck fitting (large pin secured with cotter ring)
- remove staysail stay from U-bolt on port side of boat (small carabiner)
- attach staysail stay to top of open Hyfield lever
- close lever to tension staysail stay
- put large securing pin thru lever locking mechanism

That's it - Maybe two minutes if I am slow
__________________
TacomaSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2015, 12:40   #36
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,365
Re: Sail Options for 40' Cutter

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
"What are you using to remove your inner stay so easily?"

A stainless Hyfield lever.

All I have to do to install is (reverse order for removal):

- retrieve hyfield lever from anchor locker
- secure bottom of lever to foredeck fitting (large pin secured with cotter ring)
- remove staysail stay from U-bolt on port side of boat (small carabiner)
- attach staysail stay to top of open Hyfield lever
- close lever to tension staysail stay
- put large securing pin thru lever locking mechanism

That's it - Maybe two minutes if I am slow
How did you deal with the slack in the stay when not in use?
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2015, 12:56   #37
Registered User
 
TacomaSailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Burnt Store Marina, SW Florida
Boat: Caliber 40
Posts: 1,148
Re: Sail Options for 40' Cutter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
How did you deal with the slack in the stay when not in use?
The staysail forestay is mounted on a car where it attaches to the mast. The car is on a 3' long track mounted to the top of the mast above the spreaders. When the staysail stay is attached to the Hyfield lever the car is at the very bottom of the track and is resting on a large fitting securely bolted to the mast. All the staysail stay tension is transferred to the mast thru the fitting and the car.

When I release and remove the Hyfield lever and move the staysail stay to the U-bolt I then pull the mast car upward to tension the stay now attached to the U-bolt.

The staysail stay is then out of the way and firmly tensioned to keep it from making noise or interfering with other foredeck operations.

Caliber Yachts spent a lot of time creating a very workable and efficient cruising boat.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Staysail Car.jpg
Views:	81
Size:	388.7 KB
ID:	111528  
__________________
TacomaSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2015, 15:15   #38
Registered User
 
SailRedemption's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: New Orleans
Boat: Kaufman 47
Posts: 779
Re: Sail Options for 40' Cutter

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
"What are you using to remove your inner stay so easily?"

A stainless Hyfield lever.

All I have to do to install is (reverse order for removal):

- retrieve hyfield lever from anchor locker
- secure bottom of lever to foredeck fitting (large pin secured with cotter ring)
- remove staysail stay from U-bolt on port side of boat (small carabiner)
- attach staysail stay to top of open Hyfield lever
- close lever to tension staysail stay
- put large securing pin thru lever locking mechanism

That's it - Maybe two minutes if I am slow
Thanks for the information. Couple more questions for you don't mind.. When you tension the hyfield lever, does it tension the Staysail completely or does it leave some to be desired? I have read the levers were not the best design, but worked well for what they are.

Also, where did you get your stainless lever? As I said, I have misplaced my original bronze one.. I'm either going to replace it with a new/used one or use a small block and tackle/deadeye.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk
__________________
SailRedemption is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2015, 16:34   #39
Registered User
 
TacomaSailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Burnt Store Marina, SW Florida
Boat: Caliber 40
Posts: 1,148
Re: Sail Options for 40' Cutter

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailRedemption View Post
When you tension the hyfield lever, does it tension the Staysail completely or does it leave some to be desired? I have read the levers were not the best design, but worked well for what they are.

Also, where did you get your stainless lever?
The lever came with the boat when I bought her new in Feb 1995

The lever is designed to put as much tension on the stay as you wish, or have the nerve, to use. I can get enough tension that there is less than an inch of sag in the forestay while sailing hard.

The Hyfield Lever is a SCARY device! It is an overcenter design where you have to move the lever handle from an open untensioned position to a closed and very highly loaded and tensioned position.

To close the lever and tension the forestay - I brace my feet against the bow pulpit stanchions and pull the Hyfield handle, with my back and arms, aft toward the lever aft toward the body. It is very hard to initially pull, then when the pivot passes the center point the handle snaps aft against the body.

At that point I put the locking pin thru the handle and body to ensure the handle, which is under terrible pressure, will not snap back forward.

Releasing the handle is even scarier because it will snap forward with enough pressure to break any bone in the way. I again sit facing forward and pull the handle a little aft and then rock it forward while trying to just ease it to the overcenter position. I usually put a cockpit cushion on the foredeck to absorb the blow from the lever snapping past the overcenter point and thus releasing all the tension on the forestay.

About half the time I can control the handle and the other half it snaps open with way too much force.

My lever is 21-years old and in great shape.

I have enclosed two Open and two Closed (tensioned) pictures

You can see a hex lock nut on the threaded bolt extending upward from the heavy solid stainless body. The forestay is attached to a fitting on the top of this bolt. When the body is detached from either the forestay or the deck fitting you can turn the threaded bolt in or out and thus adjust the tension on the forestay.

The tradeoff is more tension on the stay for better sail shape -vs- how scary it gets managing the Hyfield lever as it comes loose. I am a big strong guy who has been working fore decks since 1972 and the darn thing scares the bejesus out of me. One little slip or bounce and the lever handle will snap open and shatter anything in it's way to the deck.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	OpenHyField.jpg
Views:	70
Size:	402.0 KB
ID:	111538   Click image for larger version

Name:	OpenHyField 2.jpg
Views:	69
Size:	406.2 KB
ID:	111539  

Click image for larger version

Name:	ClosedHyField 2.jpg
Views:	66
Size:	353.6 KB
ID:	111540   Click image for larger version

Name:	ClosedHyField.jpg
Views:	71
Size:	268.1 KB
ID:	111541  

Click image for larger version

Name:	ClosedHyField 3.jpg
Views:	71
Size:	410.1 KB
ID:	111543  
__________________
TacomaSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2015, 17:06   #40
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SF Bay Area (Boat in La Paz)
Boat: Valiant V40
Posts: 433
Re: Sail Options for 40' Cutter

I don't know the Caliber 40 specifically, but it designed as a true cutter (as opposed to a sloop with an inner forestry added) the mast is well aft and the J quite a bit larger than that of a similarly sized sloop. Thus, a 135 gennie ends up being quite a large sail.

Indeed, it is large enough that unless made from a very lightweight material, may be difficult to maintain shape in light airs. ... and if lightweight, may be a bit fragile for heavier airs.

We have a 98 Yankee on the bow of our Valiant 40 and use it 80% of the time. We switch to a 135 lighter sail for the summer, and really do wish we had gone with a 120. I am convinced we would point better in light airs with a slightly smaller lighter sail.

We use the stays' l a lot, and have a assy that we love to fly when opportunities present.

We run both foresail on rollers, assy is in a sock.
__________________
jamhass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2015, 17:48   #41
Registered User
 
TacomaSailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Burnt Store Marina, SW Florida
Boat: Caliber 40
Posts: 1,148
Re: Sail Options for 40' Cutter

"I don't know the Caliber 40 specifically, but it designed as a true cutter (as opposed to a sloop with an inner forestry added) the mast is well aft and the J quite a bit larger than that of a similarly sized sloop."

Caliber 40 J is 17' 4" and the staysail is 7' aft of the forestay or 41% of the J.

My understanding, from talking to both the designer of the Caliber 38 (the Caliber 40 with no swimstep) and Cecil Lange who designed all the Cape George cutters, is that the Caliber 38/40 was conceived and initially built as a true cutter.

BUT - I sure do not want to start another "what is a cutter" argument. I just know our Caliber 40 goes to windward with a reefed main and staysail like a train. Get the sails set, the boat heeled, the helm adjusted and it just cruises with little effort on the part of the helmsman or autopilot.
__________________
TacomaSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2015, 18:04   #42
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SF Bay Area (Boat in La Paz)
Boat: Valiant V40
Posts: 433
Re: Sail Options for 40' Cutter

Tacoma:

Nor was my intent to get into semantics, rather to point out that as a cutter, the J is larger than a sloop resulting in (perhaps) a larger-than-expected sail, especially when thinking on the order of 135.

We also go to weather nicely in our V40, usually best when running both the yankee and stays'l, somewhat less so when running the 135. Ahhh, but broad reaching with the 135 in moderate airs on the other hand .....
__________________
jamhass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2015, 21:00   #43
Registered User
 
TacomaSailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Burnt Store Marina, SW Florida
Boat: Caliber 40
Posts: 1,148
Re: Sail Options for 40' Cutter

Jamhass - I agree with everything you say. I was not thinking of you when I made the comment about a new argument or discussion of what makes a cutter - I was remembering a very long, contentious, and informative thread about cutters from four or five years ago.

I love the Valiant 40 and tried to convince my brother to buy one in 1999.

My thesis advisor in grad school (1974) had one of the first of the Valiant 40s - we lived in Bellingham WA just down the street from Uniflite. He loved the boat and I crewed on it a bit.
__________________
TacomaSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-10-2015, 00:33   #44
Registered User
 
SailRedemption's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: New Orleans
Boat: Kaufman 47
Posts: 779
Re: Sail Options for 40' Cutter

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
The lever came with the boat when I bought her new in Feb 1995

The lever is designed to put as much tension on the stay as you wish, or have the nerve, to use. I can get enough tension that there is less than an inch of sag in the forestay while sailing hard.

The Hyfield Lever is a SCARY device! It is an overcenter design where you have to move the lever handle from an open untensioned position to a closed and very highly loaded and tensioned position.

To close the lever and tension the forestay - I brace my feet against the bow pulpit stanchions and pull the Hyfield handle, with my back and arms, aft toward the lever aft toward the body. It is very hard to initially pull, then when the pivot passes the center point the handle snaps aft against the body.

At that point I put the locking pin thru the handle and body to ensure the handle, which is under terrible pressure, will not snap back forward.

Releasing the handle is even scarier because it will snap forward with enough pressure to break any bone in the way. I again sit facing forward and pull the handle a little aft and then rock it forward while trying to just ease it to the overcenter position. I usually put a cockpit cushion on the foredeck to absorb the blow from the lever snapping past the overcenter point and thus releasing all the tension on the forestay.

About half the time I can control the handle and the other half it snaps open with way too much force.

My lever is 21-years old and in great shape.

I have enclosed two Open and two Closed (tensioned) pictures

You can see a hex lock nut on the threaded bolt extending upward from the heavy solid stainless body. The forestay is attached to a fitting on the top of this bolt. When the body is detached from either the forestay or the deck fitting you can turn the threaded bolt in or out and thus adjust the tension on the forestay.

The tradeoff is more tension on the stay for better sail shape -vs- how scary it gets managing the Hyfield lever as it comes loose. I am a big strong guy who has been working fore decks since 1972 and the darn thing scares the bejesus out of me. One little slip or bounce and the lever handle will snap open and shatter anything in it's way to the deck.
Yea, I have used chain binders before offshore.. Same principle different application. Definitely bust anything in the way when opening, or fingers when closing.

See yours has a built-in turnbuckle, mine was/is just basically a chain binder. I hope it shows up, I don't feel like replacing it.

You said your inner stay is 7' from your fwd stay? Is that correct? Mine is only a few feet, maybe 4, from the stem fitting.

Here are some pictures of my setup when I got the boat. Attachment 111546Attachment 111547Click image for larger version

Name:	uploadfromtaptalk1445754160392.jpg
Views:	69
Size:	436.4 KB
ID:	111560

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk
__________________
SailRedemption is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25-10-2015, 05:50   #45
Registered User
 
SailRedemption's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: New Orleans
Boat: Kaufman 47
Posts: 779
Re: Sail Options for 40' Cutter

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailRedemption View Post
Yea, I have used chain binders before offshore.. Same principle different application. Definitely bust anything in the way when opening, or fingers when closing.

See yours has a built-in turnbuckle, mine was/is just basically a chain binder. I hope it shows up, I don't feel like replacing it.

You said your inner stay is 7' from your fwd stay? Is that correct? Mine is only a few feet, maybe 4, from the stem fitting.

Here are some pictures of my setup when I got the boat. Attachment 111546Attachment 111547Attachment 111560

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk
The other two pictures... Click image for larger version

Name:	uploadfromtaptalk1445773573145.jpg
Views:	55
Size:	420.5 KB
ID:	111566Click image for larger version

Name:	uploadfromtaptalk1445773717429.jpg
Views:	58
Size:	428.5 KB
ID:	111567

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk
__________________

__________________
SailRedemption is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cutter, sail

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
55' Bruce Roberts Cutter Custom Cutter anme9304 Monohull Sailboats 4 25-03-2017 04:04
Seeking finance options for late model sail boat devildogwind Dollars & Cents 9 30-01-2013 11:56
Volvo Sail Drive fish line cutter spacer Sailormannn Propellers & Drive Systems 0 19-04-2012 11:22
Sail Track Options for Storm Trysail Catamount Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 1 18-02-2010 20:29
Cutter/sloop sail question wallm Monohull Sailboats 44 01-05-2007 19:44



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:16.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.