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Old 25-10-2010, 20:53   #61
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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
By the way, the original poster built a new Bene: "My wife and I just took the plunge and bought a brand new 2010 Beneteau 36.7"

Hope they are having fun

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I know they are

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Old 25-10-2010, 21:28   #62
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That was a great post Gramps u4ea32; good info, well reasoned. I also can remember IMP's arrival on the scene quite well (I'm that old too). It seemed to me after Imp nobody built a pretty racer.

One question- I have always thought the flatter shapes of the newer boats led to more pounding upwind, eg a short, abruptly decelerating pitch while the older V- shapes suffered greater pitching (a larger range of motion) but with a much softer, more comfortable landing. Am I misinterpreting something here, or am I just plain wrong (both have happened with disturbing regularity)?

Blair

No misinterpretation. You are right but it isn't just a S & S thing but more of a new v old thing. Two reasons :

1. Older boats are heavier and slower so when they reach the crest of a wave they just flop over to the other side. New boats keep sailing until the water passes aft of the center of mass and then they start thinking about a fall. In theory a yacht could sail 100% out of the water before falling. Dinghies do it all the time. If an older boat could manage the same speed it would fall just as far. It's probably a good thing they can't go that fast - think of all the spilled beer.

2. Older designs have a deeper V in the forward half of the hull. When that section lands the part that the water impacts is closer to vertical so it is easy for the water to slide up and out. The forward half of a newer hull has sections closer to horizontal so the water hits with a bigger slap. Boinnngggg !

Most boats pre 1975 or so will be smoother through rough water than most newer boats. The trade off is that they are much slower down wind.

Stay away from the Swan 39 and 391 unless you want to race. They are just Imp with a nice cabin.
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Old 25-10-2010, 21:44   #63
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Old 25-10-2010, 22:16   #64
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Originally Posted by savoir View Post
No misinterpretation. You are right but it isn't just a S & S thing but more of a new v old thing. Two reasons :

1. Older boats are heavier and slower so when they reach the crest of a wave they just flop over to the other side. New boats keep sailing until the water passes aft of the center of mass and then they start thinking about a fall. In theory a yacht could sail 100% out of the water before falling. Dinghies do it all the time. If an older boat could manage the same speed it would fall just as far. It's probably a good thing they can't go that fast - think of all the spilled beer.

2. Older designs have a deeper V in the forward half of the hull. When that section lands the part that the water impacts is closer to vertical so it is easy for the water to slide up and out. The forward half of a newer hull has sections closer to horizontal so the water hits with a bigger slap. Boinnngggg !

Most boats pre 1975 or so will be smoother through rough water than most newer boats. The trade off is that they are much slower down wind.

Stay away from the Swan 39 and 391 unless you want to race. They are just Imp with a nice cabin.
Putting in a V, this is something I've been thinking of doing to mine. It's not a Swan but it has the same flat bottom IOR design. Last year I put in a 15 lead at the front of the keel and I could see the difference in speed on the GPS. The boat goes faster now then it ever has. I don't have a picture of my own keel lead but the picture of a keel below shows the same.

I could incorporate it right into the keel from the bow stem and add a little more radius at the keel to hull, and fairing it out to the stern tube.

Are there any known drawings/pictures of the older Swans with the V bottoms?

BTW I lengthen my mainsail foot to 16' and shorten the genoa to 135%. It balanced out the boat so well that on a closehaul or closereach I seldom man the helm, it sails itself.


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Old 25-10-2010, 22:43   #65
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Here is the 48. The 44 is the same basic look.

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More info here

S&S Swan Association
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Old 25-10-2010, 23:20   #66
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Thanks for that. It seems the earlier Swans had a lot of wetted surface. A bit more then what I would want to put on mine.



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Old 25-10-2010, 23:30   #67
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There are a lot of things that go into whether a boat pounds or not. The Cal 40 was a notorious pounder and you can't say it's a flat bottomed modern design. People forgave it because of the off the wind speed.

One reason boats with overhangs pitch more is the overhang. When the bow submerges, the buoyance increases rapidly propelling the bow upward. That submerges the stern and if there is significant overhang there, the bow is forced back down. That results in hobby horsing. A lot of double enders also hobby horse as they have fairly full forward ends with lots of buoyancy but a stern that is pinched and has relatively less buoyancy. When they plow into a chop, the bow lifts higher than it would if there was buoyancy aft to counter it.

If you look at sailing pictures of the fine plumb bows of the newer designs, they tend to go through the waves with relatively little up and down motion. Can be fast to windward but not dry. The Volvo Round the World race boats are wickedly fast on a close reach with virtually no up and down motion but look like they are trying to imitate a submarine.

There are other reasons a boat hobby horses and/or pounds but the more technically oriented will have to brief you on those.
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Old 26-10-2010, 00:14   #68
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The bows of modern race boats are so fine that they don't go over the top of waves. They take a short cut through the middle.

The underbody of the hull of a Cal 40 is actually fairly flat by the standards of its day. That is part of the reason they were successful downwind racers. The hull does a pretty big turn inwards just below the waterline making the first 3 ft or so off the centerline reasonably flat. The S & S boats are noticeably more V shaped and smoothly curved from waterline to centerline. They are more like a meter boat and not so good downwind.
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Old 26-10-2010, 05:02   #69
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There are a lot of things that go into whether a boat pounds or not. The Cal 40 was a notorious pounder and you can't say it's a flat bottomed modern design. People forgave it because of the off the wind speed.

One reason boats with overhangs pitch more is the overhang. When the bow submerges, the buoyance increases rapidly propelling the bow upward. That submerges the stern and if there is significant overhang there, the bow is forced back down. That results in hobby horsing. A lot of double enders also hobby horse as they have fairly full forward ends with lots of buoyancy but a stern that is pinched and has relatively less buoyancy. When they plow into a chop, the bow lifts higher than it would if there was buoyancy aft to counter it.

If you look at sailing pictures of the fine plumb bows of the newer designs, they tend to go through the waves with relatively little up and down motion. Can be fast to windward but not dry. The Volvo Round the World race boats are wickedly fast on a close reach with virtually no up and down motion but look like they are trying to imitate a submarine.

There are other reasons a boat hobby horses and/or pounds but the more technically oriented will have to brief you on those.
Can't argue the point as a general matter but only chiming in to mention that I have had NO issues with hobby-horsing on my Swan 41. She has a lovely motion. Have had some hobby-horsing issues on other lighter 70s era boats, though.
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Old 21-09-2015, 21:20   #70
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Re: S&S Swan as Cruiser

In this thread about Swans, the Tartan 42 was suggested as an alternative. Same designer, similar era. What are the differences in sailing characteristics? I would anticipate two ways I would use the boat--for trips from the east coast to the Caribbean with crew and then just cruising around between islands in the Caribbean.
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Old 22-09-2015, 06:41   #71
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Re: S&S Swan as Cruiser

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In this thread about Swans, the Tartan 42 was suggested as an alternative. Same designer, similar era. What are the differences in sailing characteristics? I would anticipate two ways I would use the boat--for trips from the east coast to the Caribbean with crew and then just cruising around between islands in the Caribbean.
I have heard that they are similar. By the way, I wound up with a Swan 43 by Ron Holland.
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