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Old 27-11-2013, 17:24   #16
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Re: Running backstays / PS37 cutter

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Originally Posted by keepondancin View Post
Our Crealock 37 was set up with an inner forestay. We used the runners when we were using the staysail, and also used them when we were off the wind without the staysail. The runners stopped any pumping of the mast. As far as the runners interfering with the boom, you usually won't use the Staysail when well off the wind, so the runners are released and brought forward to the chainplate of the uppers that were fitted with an "O" ring just for the storage of the runners. The runners were attached to a sliding padeye at the after most point of the genoa track. If we were anchored and it was really blowing, we would set up the runners to take any pumping out of the mast. With the inner forestay and the runners, you have an extremely strong rig. In my opinion, based on 12 years of ownership and probably 8- 10,000 miles of ocean sailing, it was the most pleasant sailing boat I have ever sailed. In a seaway it would take care of us, with a comfortable motion. Using a monitor windvane, it was like a big model pond boat that would just sail, very easy to balance out with the staysail. When we would just day sail or be local sailing, we would disconnect the inner forestay to make it much easier to tack. They were very well constructed, and to the best of my knowledge, there have been very few, if any, structural problems. I miss that boat.
Great info! thanks
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Old 27-11-2013, 17:50   #17
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Re: Running backstays / PS37 cutter

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Thanks for the answer, Paul.

Would it be possible to move the chain plates for the runners aft far enough to change that?

Having the boom/runner collision possibility would discourage me from using them!

Jim
I don't know. VALIS is a PSC44, so I can't check whether the geometry of the 37 could give you the clearances.

I've sailed some miles on a friend's '37 and it really is a sweet boat. It is smaller than a "modern" 37-footer, but that is one of the reasons it feels so good at sea. I wouldn't let the runnng backstay scare me away. As has been pointed out, you aren't likely to be using it in jibe-prone conditions. I have a preventer set up anyway.
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Old 27-11-2013, 18:03   #18
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Re: Running backstays / PS37 cutter

Just to add one more thought. My staysail was hanked on, not on a furler. The PS 37 really isn't a cutter, the foretriangle is more the size of a sloop rig. The reason I didn't have a furler was so that I could detach the inner forestay, and store it on another "O" ring on the chainplate for a forward lower, so it could easily be sailed as a sloop. I didn't use a quick release lever, I just used a turnbuckle that was pinned with a circle slip rather than a cotter pin. If the boat you are looking at isn't set up for an inner forestay, no problem. There is probably a tang on the mast, and the deck is designed to add a tack plate, you wouldn't need to do any additional reinforcing, the strength is already there.
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Old 27-11-2013, 18:11   #19
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Re: Running backstays / PS37 cutter

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Thanks for the answer, Paul.

Would it be possible to move the chain plates for the runners aft far enough to change that?

Having the boom/runner collision possibility would discourage me from using them!

Jim
If the runners are backing up the staysail stay then moving aft will not change the interference, unless your reefed main puts the sail below the level of the runners...
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Old 06-12-2013, 07:57   #20
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Re: Running backstays / PS37 cutter

I am confused by this thread and I hope some one can clear this up for me...
I have a Samson C Mist 32 (similar to the WS 32) Cutter. I bought in disrepair but it is very close to being complete after 4 months of work. Not my first cruiser but my first Cutter.
I am reading this thread and maybe missing something...am I reading that the backstay is optional but should be used in heavy air to prevent mast pumping?
When I purchased the boat, the bowsprit had been taken off and all forward stays were tied off (as well as the halyards) to the whisker plates/dolphin striker plate. The backstay wasn't under much tension though but I did add a bit to it while I rebuilt the sprit. I have the bow sprit finished, stays are all in place and I plan on going through and tuning all of the standing rigging this weekend. I have only a single running backstay that Y's just above the Monitor mounting.
Since I am tensioning some new rigging, any guesses as to the tension on the running backstay if indeed it is not optional? Reading this thread, is it optional or am I really missing something important? Like staysail runners being mentioned in this thread? There are large stainless O rings attached to the sidestay turnbuckles port and starboard, like mentioned in a few posts here as tie offs to stow away the staysail runner.


This question may belong in another thread but...
My staysail is on a self tacking boom, is it a normal set up to have only one sheet on this boom run to the cockpit? I have a starboard winch on the cabin top that seems to be set up for the staysail. I have never sailed a Cutter rig and though I have the original plans, rigging a boat without having seen how it should be rigged is a safety concern at the moment.
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:20   #21
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Oregon, you might consider finding a crusty sailor or rigger to spend an hour with you showing you how all that rig on your boat is supposed to work and learn if there might be a simpler, better way to set it up. A single sheet to a block or traveller setup is common to head sail with a boom. Some rigging may seem overly complex until you learn why it is the way it is. Good luck with your cutter and fair winds.
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:23   #22
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Re: Running backstays / PS37 cutter

Seagull, I do have an old crusty Salt with some idea's and I know when I mock it all up it will sort itself out. Trouble is, I hope I am not missing hardware...the boat was cheap though-drunk people are very giving at times...
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:37   #23
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Re: Running backstays / PS37 cutter

We have running backstays on our cutter-rigged Oyster 435 ketch and, as others have said, you only effectively need to set them up when close hauled in winds of around 15 knots and above and/or in heavy head seas (basically, they stop the staysail imparting a pumping effect to the mast).

We set up the leeward runner before tacking and then release the new leeward one after completing the tack. We don't find this too tricky to manage, even with a mizzen to handle as well.

When short tacking, we often leave both runners set up, especially if we have a reef in the main. Although they are set up inside of the arc of travel of the main boom, it just means the sail battens rest on the runner (and both have chafe protection anyway).
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:47   #24
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Re: Running backstays / PS37 cutter

Seems I didn't understand the terminology...
I do not have separate runners and none that would interfere with the staysail track.
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:33   #25
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Re: Running backstays / PS37 cutter

Oregon,

Running backstays are a completely different animal than a backstay. Runners typically are mounted lower on the mast, and there is one on each side. They are primarily used to control mast pumping, not tension the leech of the main/geneoa.

Many cutters use them since it allows a much smaller mast section, but there are also a lot of cutters without. On a sloop rig they are pretty rare except on race boats where depending on rig design they can range from a nuisance to critical rig tune depending on the design.
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:57   #26
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Re: Running backstays / PS37 cutter

Seems to me to be a surprising concern - running backstays are pretty typical on all cutters for when flying the staysail - and nearly if not all will foul the boom if you jibe unintentionally. If you don't want the hassle, buy a sloop!
We had a PS37 and loved her. The running backstays are a pain from the perspective of moving forward but I never had a problem with boom interference - since we'd only rig one runner at a time (opposite side to the boom).
We now own a sloop - it also has running backstays for stabilizing the mast in heavy weather - it also would interfere with the boom - but never has...

Don't let the running backstays dissuade you from the 37. There are far worse things to worry about that I dismissed happily when I bought mine! Great boat!
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Old 07-12-2013, 09:26   #27
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Re: Running backstays / PS37 cutter

[QUOTE=Oregon Waterman;1408532]I am confused by this thread and I hope some one can clear this up for me...I am reading this thread and maybe missing something...am I reading that the backstay is optional but should be used in heavy air to prevent mast pumping? I have only a single running backstay that Y's just above the Monitor mounting.

The discussion is about running backstays. Your single main backstay from the measthead to the transom along the boat centerline is absolutely necessary. If you are new to your rig or confused, please consider inviting a rigger or sailmaker to inspect the rig. You may have to pay for the rigger but the sailmaker may gladly visit with you in hopes of future business. He can also check out your sails for fit and wear.

Running backstays will typically start from just below the upper spreaders on each side of the mast. The lower end will be fixed to the deck near or on the rail. They add extra stability to the mast in severe conditions. If you have a cutter staysail, its top will usually be fixed also at the upper spreaders. In the conditions of realy high wind and staysail use, the staysail can load the heck out of the mast. The running back on the windward side is tensioned to oppose that loading. Since the top of the running back is about 2/3 of the way up the mainsail, you necessarily must slack the leaward running back when reaching or the sail and probably the boom will rest on the running back.

Our main mast running backs have three-part blocks in the cable ends about 10 feet above the deck with the tail lead to 2-speed self-tailing Lewmar 48 winches at the aft end of the cockpit. The lower block in the 3-part is attached to a large SS pad-eye withan oversized snap shackle. This allows us to move the running backs fully forward to the shrouds when they are not needed or when they are totally in the way for running the boom out.

We also have running backs on the mizzen mast. These help back up the mast when flying the mizzen staysail. They likewise need to move when the mizzen boom is well out.
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Old 07-12-2013, 09:31   #28
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Re: Running backstays / PS37 cutter

Nicholson, thanks, and yes, my bleary salt stained eyes read something different. I DO have running backstays, large stainless rings at the chain plates, lots of items mentioned in this thread so I became a victim of reading too much and too little at the same time.
My staysail is self tacking on a boom but there is no interference with any rigging. My runners are detachable and I have wondered what those well placed stainless rings were for.
My S/V is a factory hull and owner finished boat but shares much with the Westsail 32 so I tend to read much about that S/V and see what matches up.
Its good I have no shame and there is no such thing as a stupid question...

My 15.5 S/V has no running backstay though it is a rather tall rig (22 feet). The mast is raked (adjustable even) so you never know what the heck designers and engineers come up with.
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