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Old 26-01-2009, 10:52   #31
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Blahman:
You said it so much better with so fewer words.
Thanks.
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Old 26-01-2009, 11:20   #32
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With a deeply reefed main, you can even have both runners tightly attached without affecting tacking the mainsail if you need to.
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Old 26-01-2009, 12:58   #33
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One of the first guys to do extensive cruising in a Westsail 32 got dusted up in the run down from Seattle. He was running with reefed staysail in very strong winds and significant seas. He had some reason to go forward and just happened to look up at the mast and about loaded his drawers. The staysail stay was causing the mast to pump so much out of column, he was sure that the stick would come down at any moment. He went below and crawled in his bunk and had discussions with a hihger power as there wasn't anything he could do about it without runners. Fortunately the stick didn't come down before the low passed but it scared him so much he turned left at SF and added runners.

Runners are not a problem to set and stow on a cruising boat. It's not unusual to make an entire passage on the same tack. Days on the same tack are almost a constant. The constant stresses on a cutter rig by the staysail stay need to be triangulated. Dyneema line is lightweight and virutally chafe free. Add a couple of four part blocks and you have a lot of peace and security for less than a boat unit.

We had runners on our W32. Deployed them anytime that we were sailing under the working sails which was most of our sailing. The peace of mind they gave us was priceless.

Aloha
Peter O.
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Old 26-01-2009, 14:40   #34
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It's nice to see some common sense creep into this discussion.
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Old 27-01-2009, 09:51   #35
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On our Tanton the mast has jumper stays (like a fractional rig) to help the staysail and it had I believe they were called intermediate stays to help counter the staysails pull (but at a very steep angle) based on the recommendations of our sail maker and two respected riggers we converted the IM stays to running backs. I had them made from hi tech line (very light so easy to handle/rig) and we stow them at the original chain plate. I've not needed to deploy them yet (normally sail the boat as a sloop) but practicing with them it will take very little time and as has been stated they would miss a deeply reefed main. These are not like the running backs on racing boats I've sailed on (where you worry about loosing the rig if the runner doesn't come on just right) we added these to allow us to better trim the staysail and to provide the belt and suspenders that allows us to sleep better if we ever need them in the heavy blow. Different sailor’s different choices.
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Old 23-10-2010, 17:38   #36
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Running backs attachment

Don't know if this is still alive or not - never used one before.
Have Bayfield 32C (cutter rig) wish to add running backs. Everything
Mr. Perry says resonates with me. plus I think they are kool.
Have concerns about attachment. Talked w/ some riggers they
talked about a bolt w/ sleeve attachment thru the mast w/tangs
on each end of the bolt. That seemed to me to weaken the mast
at point that at time could come under stress due to wx conditions.
Have found a local weld shop with talent. I have thought about
a type of "saddle bracket/clam shell) that goes around the mast
w/ set screws and angled arms to the rear - cross bolted and then
tangs attached for the running backs. Would possibly use a rubbery
material between mast and bracket. I hoping for some feed back.
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Old 23-10-2010, 18:41   #37
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My boat was originally designed with a fractional self-tending jib and a very large main with running backs and no permenet backstay. The second owner made the forstay detachable (and can be reattached on the foredeck to make it a cutter) so a headsail could be flown, added cap shrouds curt the boom down to 15" and added permanent back stays but kept the running backs (though where they meet the mast is now closer to where the forestay is).
this is the original rig
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Old 23-10-2010, 18:43   #38
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Krbayfield,

What those riggers suggest, a bolt and compressions sleeve through the mast, is the way to do it. Every aluminum mast I've seen running backstays has that sort of system. My W32's LeFeil mast is that way and is fine - it's the same thing used for the mast's upper and lower shroud tangs.

That saddly thingy would work, too, but if you're going to go that route, just screw some tangs to the side of the mast; probably doesn't have to go around the front. I've seen that sort of rig on a wooden mast though. Through bolting would still be stronger.


~Aaron
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Old 23-10-2010, 19:01   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blahman View Post
Krbayfield,

What those riggers suggest, a bolt and compressions sleeve through the mast, is the way to do it. Every aluminum mast I've seen running backstays has that sort of system. My W32's LeFeil mast is that way and is fine - it's the same thing used for the mast's upper and lower shroud tangs.

That saddly thingy would work, too, but if you're going to go that route, just screw some tangs to the side of the mast; probably doesn't have to go around the front. I've seen that sort of rig on a wooden mast though. Through bolting would still be stronger.


~Aaron
My mast is solid wood (3 piece laminated Sitka) and the running backs are attached with stainless tangs that wrap around the front of the mast and are screwed in.
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Old 23-10-2010, 19:15   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
My boat was originally designed with a fractional self-tending jib and a very large main with running backs and no permenet backstay. The second owner made the forstay detachable (and can be reattached on the foredeck to make it a cutter) so a headsail could be flown, added cap shrouds curt the boom down to 15" and added permanent back stays but kept the running backs (though where they meet the mast is now closer to where the forestay is).
this is the original rig
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Old 23-10-2010, 19:24   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blahman View Post
Krbayfield,

What those riggers suggest, a bolt and compressions sleeve through the mast, is the way to do it. Every aluminum mast I've seen running backstays has that sort of system. My W32's LeFeil mast is that way and is fine - it's the same thing used for the mast's upper and lower shroud tangs.

That saddly thingy would work, too, but if you're going to go that route, just screw some tangs to the side of the mast; probably doesn't have to go around the front. I've seen that sort of rig on a wooden mast though. Through bolting would still be stronger.


~Aaron
A through bolt right through the center of the mast (with compression sleeve of course) is actually located on the neutral plane of the mast for fore/aft bending (on this plane the mast is in neither compression nor tension from bending), so it will not much affect mast strength when it comes to bending or flexing. I believe the running backs should be attached to the mast at about the same elevation as the attachment point of the staysail stay. The purpose of running backs is to prevent undue fore/aft force on the mast from the staysail in a serious wind.
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Old 23-10-2010, 20:21   #42
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Just updated the line drawing this is the configuration with the forestay attached to the stem head and just the main and working jib, the forestay can easily be reattached just forward of the mooring bit making it parallel to the headstay with yankee cut genny or storm jib on head stay in combination with working jib on forestay to make it a cutter rig.
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Old 24-10-2010, 16:21   #43
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A line running from the upper block of the running back to a small block on the shrouds back to the cockpit is an easy way to ship then with out getting up. When I tack I release the running back and pull it in against the shroud from the cockpit...nice and neat and tidy. When I first got the boat I would have to get up, open a snap shackle and re attache it at the shrouds.
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