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Old 31-10-2013, 18:11   #31
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Originally Posted by bfloyd4445 View Post
All your answers are thoughtful and I wish to thank everyone. So far only one person that actually rolled over has responded that I am aware of. It seems to me if your running bare poles a rollover would be possible with little damage but I cannot imagine a vessel under sail rolling over and not at least being demisted.
Actually, I posted to those who have gone over to see if they had a drogue out. Everything I have read is that bare poles and "laying to" will get you knocked down. But that is all theory and literature.

The proof is hearing from someone who has "Eskimo rolled" a sailboat, to hear what they did when they got knocked down.

Bill
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Old 31-10-2013, 18:11   #32
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Re: roll over anyone?

I rolled a 38 fter off North Cape on NZ many years ago, stand by.
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Old 31-10-2013, 18:13   #33
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Re: roll over anyone?

Found it:

I had just got back from the Noumea race, was unemployed (sacked from Lidgard Rudling), and wanted to get across to Oz to visit a certain young lady. I met this guy who had just bought a Pacific 38, his first boat, knew next to nothing. There was one other on board who had experience (ex crew from Buccaneer), so I offered to sail up and do the nav if he would fly me to Sydney after.
At the time I was sure I knew everything as I had done a few ocean passages by then ( I was 22).
First few days were OK then it went NE and got up to about 40-45 with higher gusts. The boat handled that no problems, no sail and we all went below to wait it out. A few hours later a wall of water hit us and we were upside down and back up before you even had time to think about it.
As it happens a secondary front had gone over us with a ninety degree wind shift and much higher wind speed. As it was way more than I had seen at the time I’m reluctant to guess at wind speed but at the Cape they reported a max gust of 104kn, I would say we had consistent 70’s with gusts. The real problem was the effect the wind shift had on the sea state, two large wave sets at right angles throwing pyramids of water that would collapse under their own weight, I’m fairly sure it was one of these that hit us.
After we came up though I still hadn’t clicked that conditions were much worse, so looking at the mess below I offered to go run off and steer while the others cleaned up. My first inkling of real trouble was when I pulled the hatch back, the air going past sucked pressure out of the cabin and my ears popped as in a plane.
I turned her downwind and this heavy old displacement boat took off at about 17kn under bare poles, got to the trough and spun out into a ninety degree knockdown. That was pretty much the story for the next few hours. The rudder would let go when a breaking wave with 5-6 feet of foam got under her and the rudder had no bite. The air/sea interface was very indistinct and at times it felt almost as if we were sinking, with so much air in the water we were down almost to the toerail.
Anyway, after a while the other guy came on deck, we had a quick parley and decided to slow her down. He tied a bucket to a line and tossed it over- it lasted 1.2 nanoseconds. After some trial and error we ended with the #2 genoa and an anchor and chain out the back and things improved considerably. Enough that after watching for maybe half an hour I went below (also the seas were adjusting to the new wind direction).
Down below was a sh!tfight. The stove/oven had jumped the gimbals when we were upside down and was banging around inside the boat. We threw it overboard. The owner had been in a pilot berth, rolled across the overhead and fell on his back across the table as we righted, he was passing blood for a few days. The water was about knee deep and littered with eggs, flour, all sorts of unidentifiable stuff and my nav tables. Most had to be got rid of by hand as it was too thick for the bilge pumps.
By morning it had eased to about 35kn (seemed like a flat calm) and we very carefully started sailing back to Russell, arriving two days later.
The owner never covered my airfare to Sydney saying I hadn’t got his boat to Fiji. And he stole my favourite beanie.
I hitched to Auckland, went to the bar at Akarana and got tanked.
Points of interest:
The liferaft and dinghy were never seen having been ripped from the deck. I would never have faith in a raft stowed above deck.
A gimballed stove needs a pin so it won’t fall out if you are upside down.
The dinghy took the pulpit and port lifelines with it, making the return trip more difficult than it would have been otherwise.
Serious problem below with gear flying around, this episode stood me in good stead as I encountered similar conditions some years later on the mighty Cav and suffered zero damage, I had learnt about stowing things below. If people ask me now what I do in bad weather the answer is go below and get in my bunk and it’s not a joke. On deck is dangerous. Unless you have a full and skilful crew you must be able set your boat up to look after herself and get below.
On a lighter note later that evening I was getting hungry and remembered we had deep sixed the stove, had a look around and saw that the only food that had survived that we could eat was some liquorice and cans of cold beans. We sh*t and farted our way to Russell.
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Old 31-10-2013, 18:20   #34
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Re: roll over anyone?

I'm gonna have the most complete library of sailing anywhere pretty soon. I've been ordering 2nd hand copies of most books suggested. I have likely thousands of books anyway so a few more don't matter. just ordered two more,


Heavy Weather Sailing, 30th Anniversary Edition

Treacherous Waters: Stories of Sailors in the Clutch of the Sea
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Old 31-10-2013, 18:35   #35
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Dana-Tenacity

Thanks for sharing books never have the same credibility as someone who has done it.

Once you set the improvised drogue, the boat calmed down. Seems to confirm that the #1 thing is to have a good drogue and have the boat rigged to handle hanging off of it.

So the steps are- set drogue, go below and pray like hell.


(Is that an oxymoron?)
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Old 31-10-2013, 18:45   #36
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Re: roll over anyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dana-tenacity View Post
Found it:

I had just got back from the Noumea race, was unemployed (sacked from Lidgard Rudling), and wanted to get across to Oz to visit a certain young lady. I met this guy who had just bought a Pacific 38, his first boat, knew next to nothing. There was one other on board who had experience (ex crew from Buccaneer), so I offered to sail up and do the nav if he would fly me to Sydney after.
At the time I was sure I knew everything as I had done a few ocean passages by then ( I was 22).
First few days were OK then it went NE and got up to about 40-45 with higher gusts. The boat handled that no problems, no sail and we all went below to wait it out. A few hours later a wall of water hit us and we were upside down and back up before you even had time to think about it.
As it happens a secondary front had gone over us with a ninety degree wind shift and much higher wind speed. As it was way more than I had seen at the time Iím reluctant to guess at wind speed but at the Cape they reported a max gust of 104kn, I would say we had consistent 70ís with gusts. The real problem was the effect the wind shift had on the sea state, two large wave sets at right angles throwing pyramids of water that would collapse under their own weight, Iím fairly sure it was one of these that hit us.
After we came up though I still hadnít clicked that conditions were much worse, so looking at the mess below I offered to go run off and steer while the others cleaned up. My first inkling of real trouble was when I pulled the hatch back, the air going past sucked pressure out of the cabin and my ears popped as in a plane.
I turned her downwind and this heavy old displacement boat took off at about 17kn under bare poles, got to the trough and spun out into a ninety degree knockdown. That was pretty much the story for the next few hours. The rudder would let go when a breaking wave with 5-6 feet of foam got under her and the rudder had no bite. The air/sea interface was very indistinct and at times it felt almost as if we were sinking, with so much air in the water we were down almost to the toerail.
Anyway, after a while the other guy came on deck, we had a quick parley and decided to slow her down. He tied a bucket to a line and tossed it over- it lasted 1.2 nanoseconds. After some trial and error we ended with the #2 genoa and an anchor and chain out the back and things improved considerably. Enough that after watching for maybe half an hour I went below (also the seas were adjusting to the new wind direction).
Down below was a sh!tfight. The stove/oven had jumped the gimbals when we were upside down and was banging around inside the boat. We threw it overboard. The owner had been in a pilot berth, rolled across the overhead and fell on his back across the table as we righted, he was passing blood for a few days. The water was about knee deep and littered with eggs, flour, all sorts of unidentifiable stuff and my nav tables. Most had to be got rid of by hand as it was too thick for the bilge pumps.
By morning it had eased to about 35kn (seemed like a flat calm) and we very carefully started sailing back to Russell, arriving two days later.
The owner never covered my airfare to Sydney saying I hadnít got his boat to Fiji. And he stole my favourite beanie.
I hitched to Auckland, went to the bar at Akarana and got tanked.
Points of interest:
The liferaft and dinghy were never seen having been ripped from the deck. I would never have faith in a raft stowed above deck.
A gimballed stove needs a pin so it wonít fall out if you are upside down.
The dinghy took the pulpit and port lifelines with it, making the return trip more difficult than it would have been otherwise.
Serious problem below with gear flying around, this episode stood me in good stead as I encountered similar conditions some years later on the mighty Cav and suffered zero damage, I had learnt about stowing things below. If people ask me now what I do in bad weather the answer is go below and get in my bunk and itís not a joke. On deck is dangerous. Unless you have a full and skilful crew you must be able set your boat up to look after herself and get below.
On a lighter note later that evening I was getting hungry and remembered we had deep sixed the stove, had a look around and saw that the only food that had survived that we could eat was some liquorice and cans of cold beans. We sh*t and farted our way to Russell.
You were lucky to have survived. From what I've read securing everything below in a very solid way is #1 priority. Also using a lee cloth when bunked to help break your tumble sounds like a good idea as well. all doors drawers should have some kind of positive lock and they should be used. Backup gps charts in waterproof padded case is also not a bad idea.

thanks for sharing your experience with us.

I think if I am ever in a storm or even a gale I will just heave too and wait her out.
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Old 31-10-2013, 18:47   #37
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Re: roll over anyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snore View Post
Dana-Tenacity

Thanks for sharing books never have the same credibility as someone who has done it.

Once you set the improvised drogue, the boat calmed down. Seems to confirm that the #1 thing is to have a good drogue and have the boat rigged to handle hanging off of it.

So the steps are- set drogue, go below and pray like hell.


(Is that an oxymoron?)
yep, that's what I would do
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Old 31-10-2013, 18:58   #38
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Re: roll over anyone?

I have thankfully never rolled anything but a daysailer. Even though we knew help was on the way and worst case blew up against the seawall in a few minutes it was still one of the scariest things I have every done in a boat.
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Old 31-10-2013, 19:04   #39
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Re: roll over anyone?

The only time that I have personally seen a mono-hull stay keep-up, was when her mast got stuck in the mud.
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Old 31-10-2013, 19:42   #40
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Re: roll over anyone?

!983 off Point Conception in a CT 41 ketch rig on a delivery from San Diego to Vancouver. Left San Diego in beautiful weather, owner (a drunk) aboard but he spent the trip in a quarter berth with lee cloth and a few bottles of scotch. Fine until we started around the point leaving the oil rigs far to starboard. Weather and seas kept building through the night. Had taken off all sail except for a storms'l on its own track on the main mast.
Tied myself into the helm seat but steering was impossible so tied down the wheel, went below and tied my lifeline around the table pedestal and hunkered down. Sometime around dawn a wave picked up our little ship, slammed her sideways then over on the starboard side and my head hit the bottom of the table. Don't think we rolled but certain the keel was out of the water and mast well below horizontal. I recall a verrry slow roll back to where the mast was laying in the water with the sea pouring in the mast boot. After about 15 minutes (felt like 15 hours!) she began to right herself to the point I thought I'd risk a look on deck. Still had the sticks up but the stormsail had disappeared, tore the track right out of the mast. Went below and rescued the one bottle of scotch that hadn't smashed in the skippers bunk and had a few pulls. The boat smelled like a distillery with the broken bottles and their remnants. Few cuts on the skipper who mercifully slept through it all. Crap everywhere, about 1-2 feet of water over the floor boards mixed with canned goods, charts, TP, puke, etc. Bilge pump clogged so bailed most into the cockpit but the drains kept clogging there.
The entire deck was stripped of lee clothes, dinghy, lines, except the anchor rode we were trailing. Helm seat was gone and anything that wasn't firmly fastened had disappeared. Very glad I had stowed all the sails below earlier.
Not an experience I would want to repeat but one I will never forget! Phil
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Old 31-10-2013, 19:54   #41
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Re: roll over anyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
I have thankfully never rolled anything but a daysailer. Even though we knew help was on the way and worst case blew up against the seawall in a few minutes it was still one of the scariest things I have every done in a boat.
some of the things I see done on sail boards and such with no injuries is amazing. My best friend was killed by a lazer. He got the thing and spent hours making it look like new and when he showed it to me I got a funny feeling so I asked him if it was safe. It didn't look safe to me. He said it is tricky but he could handle it. The thing killed him on memorial day 1987 on a small lake. Was belived a gust of wind caught it and he was knocked out. When they found him in five feet of water he was dead. He had just gotten married had a new son a couple of weeks old.
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Old 31-10-2013, 19:55   #42
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Re: roll over anyone?

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Originally Posted by pbiJim View Post
The only time that I have personally seen a mono-hull stay keep-up, was when her mast got stuck in the mud.
I thought of tangled in kelp but never thought of mud
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Old 31-10-2013, 20:05   #43
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Re: roll over anyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Phil View Post
!983 off Point Conception in a CT 41 ketch rig on a delivery from San Diego to Vancouver. Left San Diego in beautiful weather, owner (a drunk) aboard but he spent the trip in a quarter berth with lee cloth and a few bottles of scotch. Fine until we started around the point leaving the oil rigs far to starboard. Weather and seas kept building through the night. Had taken off all sail except for a storms'l on its own track on the main mast.
Tied myself into the helm seat but steering was impossible so tied down the wheel, went below and tied my lifeline around the table pedestal and hunkered down. Sometime around dawn a wave picked up our little ship, slammed her sideways then over on the starboard side and my head hit the bottom of the table. Don't think we rolled but certain the keel was out of the water and mast well below horizontal. I recall a verrry slow roll back to where the mast was laying in the water with the sea pouring in the mast boot. After about 15 minutes (felt like 15 hours!) she began to right herself to the point I thought I'd risk a look on deck. Still had the sticks up but the stormsail had disappeared, tore the track right out of the mast. Went below and rescued the one bottle of scotch that hadn't smashed in the skippers bunk and had a few pulls. The boat smelled like a distillery with the broken bottles and their remnants. Few cuts on the skipper who mercifully slept through it all. Crap everywhere, about 1-2 feet of water over the floor boards mixed with canned goods, charts, TP, puke, etc. Bilge pump clogged so bailed most into the cockpit but the drains kept clogging there.
The entire deck was stripped of lee clothes, dinghy, lines, except the anchor rode we were trailing. Helm seat was gone and anything that wasn't firmly fastened had disappeared. Very glad I had stowed all the sails below earlier.
Not an experience I would want to repeat but one I will never forget! Phil
did you have a para anchor or drogue out when this happened?

Thanks for sharing your experience with us.

I spent several years when young at universities with my noise in books then into research but the most important thing I learned was that there is no substitute for experience.
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