Robert Perry's Ideal Cruiser - Buppy Boat 43

[deluxe68]

Originally Posted by KP44

I just recall far too many put-downs of other boats during our meeting with Mr. Perry. I know he is a respected designer and has created many designs that are successful boats. But hearing him say "Island Piglet" when we looked at the design of an Island Packet. Hearing him say, "I'm sorry." when told about our fast, sea-kindly Kelley-Peterson 44. His arrogant, self-important attitude makes him difficult to be around.

As for the design, I carry plenty of sail with no bow overhang on a cutter of the same tonnage, but we have a 40' waterline (increased hull speed) and much more room for a good chain locker. Our keel is cut away fore and aft, giving much less wetted surface (drag) and I can turn the boat "on its keel" using the engine.
It sounds more like Perry knows all this but he has a design ready-made and available.

I know he is supposed to be the best naval architect who ever lived but I always seem to find some odd design characteristics in his boats. Many, in the 40’ range I was shopping for, had engine access issues. One had teak decks that were screwed in from both top and bottom from the factory. He has essentially taken over the cruising section of another sailing forum. He only lends his advice when people pony up $500 or whatever his consult fee is.

[Delancey]

It is fun to see the armchair yacht designers come out of the woodwork, especially to critique a boat the guy designed for himself.

I guess it was only a matter of time before a critique of the design turned into a critique of the designer himself personally.

Classic CF all the way!

[NevisDog]

Yes, with this sort of negativity regarding a boat intended for his own personal needs, and worse, regarding the designer himself, it's no surprise outstanding yacht designers will not enter discussions on CF. I'm sure everyone here could do so much better, but then wonder why they haven't.

[KP44]

Originally Posted by Delancey

It is fun to see the armchair yacht designers come out of the woodwork, especially to critique a boat the guy designed for himself.

I guess it was only a matter of time before a critique of the design turned into a critique of the designer himself personally.

Classic CF all the way!

And I see nothing here about the design.

We were asked to come out of the woodwork and critique a yacht design. But we are active sailors and not "armchair yacht designers". When we need a design, we hire a naval architect and have it done right.

[Simi 60]

Not being disrespectful but building a heavy

big brute of a boat

out of carbon seems like a waste of carbon to me.

[olaf hart]

A couple of comments.
First remember Bob is the only noted boat designer out there on the internets, the others wisely stay away and clients happily pay for their services and advice.
Some folks think they are entitled to freebies whenever they go online, get over it or go back to your favourite free site.
Second, the first boat of this hull design has been launched and sailed, so Bob knows how it sails and I suspect this is part of the reason he would personally use the design.
Third, US boat owners have been sold pigs for years by successful marketing. There is nothing exceptional about Island Packets, Westsails and KP44’s. They are overweight wallowing tubs.
Many dreamers end up selling them in Queensland or NZ after their downwind run across the Pacific in their dream to sail the South Seas. If they were that good why don’t they take them home again? Is it because they can’t or don’t want to sail them upwind?
Fourth, ask the moderators.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Yes, with this sort of negativity regarding a boat intended for his own personal needs, and worse, regarding the designer himself, it's no surprise outstanding yacht designers will not enter discussions on CF. I'm sure everyone here could do so much better, but then wonder why they haven't.

Outstanding yacht designers don't enter discussions on public forums, they have better things to do with their time.

Not even in boat design forums. There you can find several NA posting, even some good ones, but not outstanding ones.

They also don't post their new designs on facebook groups or forums. They don't needed that kind of publicity.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by olaf hart

A couple of comments.
First remember Bob is the only noted boat designer out there on the internets, the others wisely stay away and clients happily pay for their services and advice.
Some folks think they are entitled to freebies whenever they go online, get over it or go back to your favourite free site.
Second, the first boat of this hull design has been launched and sailed, so Bob knows how it sails and I suspect this is part of the reason he would personally use the design.
Third, US boat owners have been sold pigs for years by successful marketing. There is nothing exceptional about Island Packets, Westsails and KP44’s. They are overweight wallowing tubs.
Many dreamers end up selling them in Queensland or NZ after their downwind run across the Pacific in their dream to sail the South Seas. If they were that good why don’t they take them home again? Is it because they can’t or don’t want to sail them upwind?
Fourth, ask the moderators.

The boat is not exactly my cup of tea but I can see why people like them. That full keel is not like your typical full keel, it's fairly efficient and I expect that boat will go upwind fairly well, certainly a lot better than many fin keels out there. The galley and dinette work very nice for a long distant cruiser. The pilot house is a bit small but serves it's purpose, extra light and the ability to look around the anchorage while enjoying your morning tea..
Perry designed the Valliant 40 which many consider one of the better offshore designs and it indeed is a decent sailboat for a couple. Island Packets are not upwind speedsters for sure but they have their following for a variety of reasons. Westsails are the hobby horse world champs but 30 or 40 years ago they were traveling all over the place and some are still going strong. Now where I really disagree with you is on the KP44 as these boats can sail...designed by Doug Peterson who has never designed a slow boat in his life they can make 24 hour runs in the 180 mile plus range in the trades so no slouch. One thing I think many people miss is if you choose a Pogo 36 for a long distant cruising boat your going to have an extremely lively boat, it will be anything but comfortable when crossing oceans. Perry's boat at 35000 pounds with a decent cruising sail area will ride like a Cadillac and will self steer with ease, you'll have a place for everything which you most surely will not on the Pogo. The Pogo will be a European camper experience. Ok now I'll fess up and tell you I love those damn Pogos, I'd need a 50 footer to carry my junk and not overload the boat enough that I'd kill the performance plus it is big enough to have a nicer motion at sea. I think they are wonderful designs.

[olaf hart]

And that’s the key to my point about US designed “cruisers”, they are designed as condos not boats.

Leaving Roberts boats out of the discussion, cruisers from Oz and NZ are designed as sailboats, not cruising homes..

Take the KP44 for example, and let’s forget for a while it was built in Taiwan with variable quality and a wood cored deck. It weighs over 30,000 lb light, has 10,000 lb of ballast, and a listed sail area of 780 sq ft.

So it’s tender 33% ballast ratio comes before tanks are filled, the generator, water maker, hot water system, stainless tower on the back with large solar panels, heavy davits, radar tower, bimini and full oxygen tent, a big dinghy with a heavy outboard, an outboard crane, anchors chain and windlass, heavy batteries and a full freezer system and so on

So a marginally useful boat becomes a downwind princess.

In contrast, Joe Adams designed my 36 footer as a cruiser, not a racer. It weighs 14,000lbs with an external lead keel of over 7,000lbs, with a sail area of 700 sq ft.

The Adams 12, a largish center cockpit boat which is comparable with the KP44 weighs 16,000 lbs with a SA around 800 sq ft and a close to 50% ballast ratio.

And the Kiwis have many similar designers, Farr, Elliott, Young, Davidson, just to name a few.

If you want to sail to windward you need a long forestay, low wind age and a stiff boat, period.

You don’t need displacement.

US cruisers have bought the marketing hype and bring their houses with them when they go to sea.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by olaf hart

And that’s the key to my point about US designed “cruisers”, they are designed as condos not boats.

Leaving Roberts boats out of the discussion, cruisers from Oz and NZ are designed as sailboats, not cruising homes..

Take the KP44 for example, and let’s forget for a while it was built in Taiwan with variable quality and a wood cored deck. It weighs over 30,000 lb light, has 10,000 lb of ballast, and a listed sail area of 780 sq ft.

So it’s tender 33% ballast ratio comes before tanks are filled, the generator, water maker, hot water system, stainless tower on the back with large solar panels, heavy davits, radar tower, bimini and full oxygen tent, a big dinghy with a heavy outboard, an outboard crane, anchors chain and windlass, heavy batteries and a full freezer system and so on

So a marginally useful boat becomes a downwind princess.

In contrast, Joe Adams designed my 36 footer as a cruiser, not a racer. It weighs 14,000lbs with an external lead keel of over 7,000lbs, with a sail area of 700 sq ft.

The Adams 12, a largish center cockpit boat which is comparable with the KP44 weighs 16,000 lbs with a SA around 800 sq ft and a close to 50% ballast ratio.

And the Kiwis have many similar designers, Farr, Elliott, Young, Davidson, just to name a few.

If you want to sail to windward you need a long forestay, low wind age and a stiff boat, period.

You don’t need displacement.

US cruisers have bought the marketing hype and bring their houses with them when they go to sea.

Have you sailed any decent distance on a Kp44?

[QBF]

Originally Posted by Polux

Outstanding yacht designers don't enter discussions on public forums, they have better things to do with their time.

Not even in boat design forums. There you can find several NA posting, even some good ones, but not outstanding ones.

They also don't post their new designs on facebook groups or forums. They don't needed that kind of publicity.

Sorry Polux, but your statement is wrong.

Robert Perry has more than 30,000 posts in the Cruising Anarchy forum on Sailing Anarchy. Bob Perry is just one of a number of yacht designers that regularly post on that site.

[Wckoek]

7 feet of draft is too much for my liking in a cruiser, and if for a performance cruiser or racer a fin or bulb keel makes better sense.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by Polux

Outstanding yacht designers don't enter discussions on public forums, they have better things to do with their time.

Not even in boat design forums. There you can find several NA posting, even some good ones, but not outstanding ones.

They also don't post their new designs on facebook groups or forums. They don't needed that kind of publicity.

Pointless ad hominem attack wrapped up in a load of crap. You don't judge the quality of a person's work based on how they socialize or talk about their work on internet forums.

Perry does not need publicity and that's not why he posts to SA. He has other reasons and they have no bearing on his skill or reputation as a naval architect.

As for the design itself, Perry loves traditional boat designs and has a long history of integrating various cues and motifs into his own designs. The complaint that there is "nothing new" in the design would probably please him to no end. The man is also not much of a cruiser. He prefers fast boats, generally, and "weekenders". Obviously this is a departure from that so perhaps he is getting old and just wants a boat that he can spend a week on and that will take everything that's thrown at it. Who knows.

[daletournier]

Has Robert Perry designed any "modern fast cruising" boats. Genuine question, when I say modern design I mean along the lines of European style of the last decade etc. Not that he needs to, he's obviously entitled to his style.

Although in the past I admired some of his earlier designs, my tastes have changed to more modern styling.

[QBF]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Has Robert Perry designed any "modern fast cruising" boats. Genuine question, when I say modern design I mean along the lines of European style of the last decade etc. Not that he needs to, he's obviously entitled to his style.

Although in the past I admired some of his earlier designs, my tastes have changed to more modern styling.

Here are two of Perry's modern designs: Marlin (L) and Wild Horses (R).

BTW: Search engines are wonderful things

Robert Perry website
Robert H. Perry Yacht Designers, Inc.


Perry Blog
Yacht Design According to Perry