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Old 16-03-2018, 14:31   #1
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Rigging replacement costs question

The Bavaria 37 I've (almost) bought is 13 years old. The surveyor I used for the hull, keel and superstructure survey recommended that I get a specialist rigger to check the rigging so I could get the best possible advice. The rigger has told me that the rigging is perfectly good but he suggested that it would be a good idea to have it replaced given that it's over 10 years old (he suggested that insurers would require this but so far the broker hasn't said anything about this so I assume it isn't a requirement by the insurance company - or maybe they just stay quiet on this as it's considered part of a good preventative maintenance plan for the boat.

The rigger gave me a rough estimate of NZ$7000 to replace the rigging. I mentioned this to the previous owner (not the current owner) when I was checking with him as to whether the rigging had been changed previously and he suggested I contact another rigger he had used on a previous boat (not the Bavaria) and this guy (who also seems to come highly recommended) indicated a figure of between NZ$3-4000 (albeit he hasn't seen the boat).

So, I'm guessing that a reasonable price is somewhere between these two figures at, say NZ$5000. Anyone had recent experience of having such work done??

When I was speaking to the current owner on Wednesday when the boat was being surveyed, I mentioned that it had been suggested that the rigging be replaced and he became a bit agitated and indicated that he wouldn't be doing this and wouldn't reduce the price to reflect the cost of having this done.

This seemed a bit off to me as, surely, if it's a recommendation from a rigger (and possibly a requirement for insurance) to replace rigging after 10 years, then, if this hasn't been done, it's reasonable to reflect the cost in the purchase price?

I'd agreed a price, subject to survey and sea trial so, surely, it's fair to bring this up as something either he does and I then pay the agreed price or else, the price is reduced to reflect the work needed and I have the work done myself?

Or am I missing something??
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Old 16-03-2018, 15:02   #2
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Re: Rigging replacement costs question

Having it done is expensive. Doing it yourself is not. I doubt there is more than $2000 in materials. maybe 220 ft of wire at $2.40 a foot? $528. 12 fittings at $100? $1200?
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Old 16-03-2018, 15:02   #3
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Re: Rigging replacement costs question

You may have a technicality which would allow you to back out of the contract and have your deposit returned in full. The current owner has no obligation to fix anything or adjust the purchase price unless specifically required by the contract. He can simply bid you good day and send you on your way.
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Old 16-03-2018, 15:13   #4
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Re: Rigging replacement costs question

Cheechako, is that US$2000 you're quoting? If so, then NZ$4-5000 is roughly the equivalent price here. New Zealand prices always seem to be higher - even allowing for the exchange rate.

Yes, I agree that either I or the vendor could walk away from the deal but I certainly don't want to and hopefully the vendor feels the same way - although he's always said that he's 'not too concerned whether it sells or not' but that's possibly just a bit of sales pitch I suspect.

The contract does allow for cancellation and the return of the deposit if the survey finds significant defects. I'd say that replacement of the rigging could be described that way - particularly if I can't get insurance for the boat without having the work done and, if I can't get insurance then I can't get a marina berth for the boat.

I just want to pay a fair price for the boat and not end up taking on someone else's maintenance costs as well as paying a full price for the boat as if no work is needed to be done.
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Old 16-03-2018, 15:24   #5
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Re: Rigging replacement costs question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deryck View Post
Cheechako, is that US$2000 you're quoting? If so, then NZ$4-5000 is roughly the equivalent price here. New Zealand prices always seem to be higher - even allowing for the exchange rate.

Yes, I agree that either I or the vendor could walk away from the deal but I certainly don't want to and hopefully the vendor feels the same way - although he's always said that he's 'not too concerned whether it sells or not' but that's possibly just a bit of sales pitch I suspect.

The contract does allow for cancellation and the return of the deposit if the survey finds significant defects. I'd say that replacement of the rigging could be described that way - particularly if I can't get insurance for the boat without having the work done and, if I can't get insurance then I can't get a marina berth for the boat.

I just want to pay a fair price for the boat and not end up taking on someone else's maintenance costs as well as paying a full price for the boat as if no work is needed to be done.
Its your choice. Pay for a new rigging or buy another boat.
Honestly this 10 year figure is just a ball park figure. Most 10 year old boats that have not seen any ocean sailing are OK for many years to come, while another with a circumnavigation under its belt is overdue.
It really depends on the condition of the standing rigging.


Just because someone quotes an imaginarey 10 year blabla rule is no reason to reduce purchase price.
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Old 16-03-2018, 15:41   #6
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Re: Rigging replacement costs question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deryck View Post
Or am I missing something??
Yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deryck View Post
I get a specialist rigger to check the rigging so I could get the best possible advice. The rigger has told me that the rigging is perfectly good
You can see were the vendor is coming from. You can make a revised offer and the vendor has the right to refuse the offer. The two of you need to settle on an acceptable price if the boat is to be sold.

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Old 16-03-2018, 16:50   #7
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Re: Rigging replacement costs question

If I may ask, what does the specialist rigger charge for a detail rigging inspection or is that normally part of the super structure inspection carried out by the surveyor?
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Old 16-03-2018, 17:02   #8
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Re: Rigging replacement costs question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deryck View Post
Cheechako, is that US$2000 you're quoting? If so, then NZ$4-5000 is roughly the equivalent price here. New Zealand prices always seem to be higher - even allowing for the exchange rate.

Yes, I agree that either I or the vendor could walk away from the deal but I certainly don't want to and hopefully the vendor feels the same way - although he's always said that he's 'not too concerned whether it sells or not' but that's possibly just a bit of sales pitch I suspect.

The contract does allow for cancellation and the return of the deposit if the survey finds significant defects. I'd say that replacement of the rigging could be described that way - particularly if I can't get insurance for the boat without having the work done and, if I can't get insurance then I can't get a marina berth for the boat.

I just want to pay a fair price for the boat and not end up taking on someone else's maintenance costs as well as paying a full price for the boat as if no work is needed to be done.
Yes, US $. I was amazed that Sta-Loks or etc were roughly $100 each! That kind of takes the value of DIY out of rigging it seems to me. What were they $20 when they started making them?
re the boat: I think with nothing obviously wrong, it's a tough deal. The general rule is 10 -15 years for rigging but there are plenty out there longer. I would find it hard to go back to seller on something that is a PERCEIVED issue with no backup. You are buying a used boat, the rigging is used too! Where's the defect? Now if there is rust, broken strands , cracked fittings.... that's something else. I've seen new rigging I wouldn't be that comfortable with (poor, non rotary swaging that bends the swage etc).
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Old 16-03-2018, 17:11   #9
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Re: Rigging replacement costs question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deryck View Post
The rigger has told me that the rigging is perfectly good but he suggested that it would be a good idea to have it replaced given that it's over 10 years old (he suggested that insurers would require
Sounds like the rigging is good, but the rigger was looking to make some extra money if he could. Maybe ask your insurance company if rigging >10 yrs is a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Having it done is expensive. Doing it yourself is not. I doubt there is more than $2000 in materials. maybe 220 ft of wire at $2.40 a foot? $528. 12 fittings at $100? $1200?
I think the point being made was if you feel the rigging needs to be replaced, you could do it for cheaper than a rigger will do. To be honest, most of the time they are doing direct replacement for the existing standing rigging, so not too hard to figure out what's needed.

Instead of swages, you could replace with Petersen Stainless Hi-mod (UK) fittings. Super easy to install, same price or less than swages (less labor cost), can be used over again and don't have to rely on someone else to do it for you.

Cheers,
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Old 16-03-2018, 17:51   #10
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Re: Rigging replacement costs question

Quote:
The rigger has told me that the rigging is perfectly good
If I was the seller I would replace anything you could find broken or deficient but I'd refuse to replace the standing rigging because "it's over 10 years old". It's not any older than it was when you made the offer, most contracts are written so the buyer can refuse for any reason. If you refused because the standing rigging was perfectly good but older than 10 that's fine. However I'd bet the next boat you found would also have rigging the same age as the boat.
Mine is 16 years old, I don't believe my insurer knows or cares, they certainly never asked, perhaps NZ is different.
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Old 17-03-2018, 01:04   #11
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Re: Rigging replacement costs question

As a reference point:

An online quote for supplies for rigging of a 46' ketch was just at $3200usd. This included:
-all stays cut to length
-swaged fittings installed at the top of each stay
-the appropriate Sta-lok fitting to be installed on the lower ends by me

This said, if I was the seller I wouldn't budge on the price over this and if I was a buyer I wouldn't ask for a reduction in price. Frankly I would expect to know the age of the rigging and thus factor that in before making an offer. If something was broke, it would probably be a different story.

We must remember that the agreed tentative offer amount incorporates the net valuation of the thing being transferred from each side. Once at survey invariably a buyer will find things that sours his net valuation of boat from the buyer's perspective. But what if the owner may have valued other items much higher than the buyer valued the same things (e.g. low-time engine, new electronics). In accepting the offer in the first place the seller may have a sour stomach.
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Old 17-03-2018, 08:16   #12
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Re: Rigging replacement costs question

Here’s the problem rigger says rigging fine But should be replaced well what about batteries 5 yrs old working but should be replaced as with age things need to be replaced everything will need to be replaced someday engine sails halyards etc. So if you don’t wanna do maintance don’t buy a boat
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Old 17-03-2018, 08:31   #13
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Re: Rigging replacement costs question

Looked at a boat once with 2 circumnavigations under her belt and owner didn't think the standing rigging needed replacement nor a hull survey to see if there were any wet areas in the vacuum bagged balsa core. In fact, he got really pissy. Needless to say we walked away.

The boat sat there for a few more years, then eventually sold for ~$200K less than the asking price.

Too many used boats out there and owners need to be realistic in pricing when selling their "babies".

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Old 17-03-2018, 09:41   #14
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Re: Rigging replacement costs question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
As a reference point:

An online quote for supplies for rigging of a 46' ketch was just at $3200usd. This included:
-all stays cut to length
-swaged fittings installed at the top of each stay
-the appropriate Sta-lok fitting to be installed on the lower ends by me

This said, if I was the seller I wouldn't budge on the price over this and if I was a buyer I wouldn't ask for a reduction in price. Frankly I would expect to know the age of the rigging and thus factor that in before making an offer. If something was broke, it would probably be a different story.

We must remember that the agreed tentative offer amount incorporates the net valuation of the thing being transferred from each side. Once at survey invariably a buyer will find things that sours his net valuation of boat from the buyer's perspective. But what if the owner may have valued other items much higher than the buyer valued the same things (e.g. low-time engine, new electronics). In accepting the offer in the first place the seller may have a sour stomach.

I find this a very realistic post. I would also add that if this boat's rigging shows no obvious defects (which is commonly determined with the mast out and dye tests or even X-rays of the tangs and other fittings on the ground, not just eyeballing the bottom half) and the boat has been a weekend coaster, AND the boat isn't on the South Island (windier by far much of the time, as I've heard), you may defer this decision. It's worth hiring a different rigger or simply an experienced fellow yachtie, to have a look. Your insurance firm may, however, have other ideas.

As a guide, I got 39 years from my first boat's rigging in fresh water, and I consider the stays and shrouds still good as spares. But I'm prepping an ocean-going boat and I would consider 10-15 years good service. From what I understand, the worst place are the brackish waters of Florida, which apparently are tough on even stainless steel. NZ may differ in this regard. You may find this of help: https://alchemy2009.blogspot.ca/2013...ging-game.html
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Old 17-03-2018, 10:16   #15
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Re: Rigging replacement costs question

So.....

10 years is a good number to change a rig. It can easily be done yourself with a little help. Its a great way to get to know your rig and how to tune it.

No rigger is going to green light a 10 + year old rig.

Lots of myths in the previous post. Wind, useage, miles sailed.. and this and that.

What kills a rig is corrosion and metal fatigue induced by the corrosion.

Corrosion has a direct relationship to the enviornment. Tropics = much a faster corrosion than lets say the South Island of New Zealand. The problem with corrosion is it can often not bee seen by the naked eye easily and can be hidden.

If i was about to do some serious ocean sailing, id change the rig. If I was going to pot around for a bit, id do it when when i had the cash and time.


What the survyor say about the chain plates? were you able to get a good look at them . Have they been NDT tested?


IMO a 10 year old rig would have been figured into my offer.

as previously said, lots of boats for sale, id counter a bit All he can say is no and then your back at the agreed price.

LD
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