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Old 19-09-2016, 17:54   #1
TCL
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Requesting Opinions On Potential Purchase

I'm considering the 1982 Morgan 462 at this listing: 1982 Morgan 462 Ketch Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

I went to look at it, and I have a few questions/concerns that I'm trying to think through/research to determine whether it seems promising enough to make an offer and bear the cost of surveyor and transport to/from water (it has been on the hard for the past year-and-a-half).

In looking at other boats, I've been guided by the information at this site: Marine Survey 101, Do your own marine survey. I've had the opportunity to take my time and look very closely; for example, on the boat before this one (an Antigua 44), it took 2.75 hours and I ultimately decided not to make an offer. Here, because of the selling broker's schedule, I only had approx. 1.5 hours.

So much for the background. Here are my questions:

1. I've attached some photos of the mast step. The structural frame member looks like it has been re-glassed. This seems like a big red flag. I've asked the brokers to get info from the owner on why this was done. Question is: Anyone think this is a big enough red flag that I should just run before bearing the cost of the survey? (Sorry about the orientation of some of the photos; I had to stick my phone under a stuck sole plate and shoot blindly.)

2. I've also attached a photo of the structural member supporting the prop shaft, where it is welded to the hull. I can't tell if this is normal or if this weld is a sign of an unprofessional repair job.

3. The list of known repairs/refits, even before survey, include:
  • master cabin a/c not working
  • forward head is "porta-potty" head; "can be plumbed for pumpout" (which I assume means a forward holding tank would need to be installed)
  • watermaker has "low output and leaks"
  • listing includes "two wind generators, not installed, not working" (the point of which I'm not sure)
I've listed those in descending order of necessity. I've just begun researching costs to replace, but if anyone has any input or ideas, either on cost or research avenues, I'd appreciate it.

I'd welcome any and all thoughts on the above, Morgan 462 issues generally, or anything else pertinent.

Thanks
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Old 19-09-2016, 18:23   #2
Guy
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Re: Requesting Opinions On Potential Purchase

Is all that black stuff mold? Don't buy a moldy boat.
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Old 19-09-2016, 18:30   #3
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Re: Requesting Opinions On Potential Purchase

Quote:
Originally Posted by TCL View Post
I'm considering the 1982 Morgan 462 at this listing: 1982 Morgan 462 Ketch Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com



I went to look at it, and I have a few questions/concerns that I'm trying to think through/research to determine whether it seems promising enough to make an offer and bear the cost of surveyor and transport to/from water (it has been on the hard for the past year-and-a-half).



In looking at other boats, I've been guided by the information at this site: Marine Survey 101, Do your own marine survey. I've had the opportunity to take my time and look very closely; for example, on the boat before this one (an Antigua 44), it took 2.75 hours and I ultimately decided not to make an offer. Here, because of the selling broker's schedule, I only had approx. 1.5 hours.



So much for the background. Here are my questions:



1. I've attached some photos of the mast step. The structural frame member looks like it has been re-glassed. This seems like a big red flag. I've asked the brokers to get info from the owner on why this was done. Question is: Anyone think this is a big enough red flag that I should just run before bearing the cost of the survey? (Sorry about the orientation of some of the photos; I had to stick my phone under a stuck sole plate and shoot blindly.)



2. I've also attached a photo of the structural member supporting the prop shaft, where it is welded to the hull. I can't tell if this is normal or if this weld is a sign of an unprofessional repair job.



3. The list of known repairs/refits, even before survey, include:
  • master cabin a/c not working
  • forward head is "porta-potty" head; "can be plumbed for pumpout" (which I assume means a forward holding tank would need to be installed)
  • watermaker has "low output and leaks"
  • listing includes "two wind generators, not installed, not working" (the point of which I'm not sure)

I've listed those in descending order of necessity. I've just begun researching costs to replace, but if anyone has any input or ideas, either on cost or research avenues, I'd appreciate it.



I'd welcome any and all thoughts on the above, Morgan 462 issues generally, or anything else pertinent.



Thanks

Hi TCL,

It's not uncommon for the mast step to need reinforcement, I would not let that be a big concern, as long as it's well done. The picture of the shaft strut is pretty normal - mine looks very similar, as does another M462 I saw out of the water. Regardless of these things, since this is an older boat, I'd highly recommend getting a professional survey. It should be around $1100 (that's what I paid), and you won't have to pay for the boat to be hauled. I'll pm you my contact details if you'd like to discuss further...

Regards,
David


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Old 19-09-2016, 18:33   #4
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Re: Requesting Opinions On Potential Purchase

A porta-potty in a 46 footer. Now I know what I've been missing. The skeg is not welded to the hull, it's either bolted and glassed or just glassed. You really need a survey but I'd start with requesting the maintenance records. You can review them in the brokers office. If the mast step repair wasn't performed by a pro or a proven skilled owner then everything else is suspect. If there are no maintenance records, run away. Big boat, big bills.....
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Old 19-09-2016, 18:37   #5
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Re: Requesting Opinions On Potential Purchase

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Originally Posted by Orion Jim View Post
A porta-potty in a 46 footer. Now I know what I've been missing. The skeg is not welded to the hull, it's either bolted and glassed or just glassed. You really need a survey but I'd start with requesting the maintenance records. You can review them in the brokers office. If the mast step repair wasn't performed by a pro or a proven skilled owner then everything else is suspect. If there are no maintenance records, run away. Big boat, big bills.....

Big bills, indeed. Right after I bought my M462 it got struck by lightning to the tune of $30k worth of new electrics and electronic. But that was not the fault of the boat or the PO, and fortunately I have insurance :-)

Yes, porta-potty is not going to cut it on this boat, either install a holding tank, or better yet an ElectroScan. I have one for the forward head, and holding tank aft. Guess which head will get the most use?


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Old 19-09-2016, 18:51   #6
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Re: Requesting Opinions On Potential Purchase

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Here's a picture of my shaft strut at the time of the survey. Not that different than yours...


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Old 19-09-2016, 20:26   #7
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Re: Requesting Opinions On Potential Purchase

If you will allow me to give you my honest advice based on experience in such matters and familiarity with many Morgans....if you are relying on a free, crowd-sourced opinions based on your brief review of a 46' boat in order to decide whether to spend 75k for this boat and are hesitant to hire a surveyor for...oh--maybe $1000...then perhaps, just maybe you should not be buying this boat--or perhaps you cannot really afford to buy any boat, especially a 46 footer of 1982 vintage. Take the risk--or not, but if the risk of a thousand dollar survey is too much, then...well...what's next? Ask strangers online for our opinions based on your photos and a few ideas? The listing says the boat was re-rigged in 2008--that's great news..so how bad do you think is the mast step or the strut? Where do you plan to sail--Tahiti? Since you have likely found some of the major issues, why not go next to get estimates? Of course-tell the technician that you have not bought the boat--don't blindside them... If you need to pull the mast and work on the step, add a head, replace the AC...whatever you think it will cost--double it and ask yourself if you can afford it// and double the hours you think it will take. If you cannot afford to put 25k to 50k into the boat.....run. But why place value on our free online crowd-sourced advice based on a few photos? You want real answers? Pay a professional. There is a lot at stake. Beware and proceed cautiously, but you are looking at a 1982 boat for 75k. What are you expecting? If you want new and perfect and a warranty--go pay a million dollars. BTW--have you owned other boats?
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Old 19-09-2016, 20:56   #8
TCL
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Re: Requesting Opinions On Potential Purchase

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Annapolis View Post
If you will allow me to give you my honest advice based on experience in such matters and familiarity with many Morgans....if you are relying on a free, crowd-sourced opinions based on your brief review of a 46' boat in order to decide whether to spend 75k for this boat and are hesitant to hire a surveyor for...oh--maybe $1000...then perhaps, just maybe you should not be buying this boat--or perhaps you cannot really afford to buy any boat, especially a 46 footer of 1982 vintage. Take the risk--or not, but if the risk of a thousand dollar survey is too much, then...well...what's next?
* * *
But why place value on our free online crowd-sourced advice based on a few photos? You want real answers? Pay a professional. There is a lot at stake. Beware and proceed cautiously, but you are looking at a 1982 boat for 75k. What are you expecting? If you want new and perfect and a warranty--go pay a million dollars.
Paul --
Thanks for your thoughts, and having been a member here for a while, I realized when I posted that I would get a few responses like yours. Perhaps you mis-read my post or perhaps I somehow did not make my thoughts sufficiently clear. So to be clear to you and anyone else who might respond:

NO WHERE in my original post did I intend suggest that I might be relying solely on "free advice, crowd-sourced based opinions";
NO WHERE in my original post did I intend to suggest that I would spend $75K on a boat, whether a 46' boat or any other length, based on my brief review of the boat (or based on free advice from a forum);
NO WHERE in my original post did I intend to suggest that I would EVER buy a boat without a professional survey;
NO WHERE in my original post did I intend to suggest that I would be hesitant to pay $1000 for a professional survey.
And no where in my original post does it suggest that I want "new and perfect and a warranty."

In fact, my post says simply that I was in the process of doing research to decide whether to (a) proceed, make an offer, get a survey and sea trial or (b) to forgo that process altogether for this boat.

I'm certainly not going to make a decision on whether to pay $XX for a boat based on what are the responses to a forum post. I'm certainly not going to pay $XX for a boat without a professional survey and sea trial. (And I'm certainly not going to pay $75K for this boat.)

I'd say "give me a little credit," but I realize that you, and others, don't know anything about me or anyone who posts questions on this forum -- and I've seen some pretty inept questions from apparent novices -- so instead I'll give you a little credit and assume that the miscommunication was my fault.

That said, I don't think there's any reason why, as part of the research I'm doing, I should not post questions on a forum like this to solicit opinions of others who may have more experience than me (although I have plenty, thanks) or who have experience with the specific boats I'm considering. Frankly, the only reason I'd hesitate to do that is to avoid responses like yours.
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Old 19-09-2016, 21:07   #9
TCL
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Re: Requesting Opinions On Potential Purchase

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion Jim View Post
The skeg is not welded to the hull, it's either bolted and glassed or just glassed. You really need a survey but I'd start with requesting the maintenance records. You can review them in the brokers office. If the mast step repair wasn't performed by a pro or a proven skilled owner then everything else is suspect. If there are no maintenance records, run away.
Thanks Jim. I'd always get a survey before purchasing, just wanted to run some thoughts by the forum as well and see what kind of insights, if any, folks might have before I decide whether this is a strong enough candidate to spend the $1200+ on the survey or just keep looking.

On the skeg/shaft strut, I guess what threw me is that no bolts are apparent -- unlike the photo that Davidhoy posted of his. Perhaps the bolts are covered over by glass or, as you say, maybe it's just glassed.

Thanks again.
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Old 19-09-2016, 21:11   #10
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Re: Requesting Opinions On Potential Purchase

Thanks for your responses, Davidhoy.
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Old 19-09-2016, 21:13   #11
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Re: Requesting Opinions On Potential Purchase

You wrote "so instead I'll give you a little credit and assume that the miscommunication was my fault." I would say that is a reasonable assumption on your part. Once again, this is proof that no good deed goes unpunished. I believe I gave you sincere, well-intentioned and honest advice based on my experience and I stand by it. You are looking at a 35 year old 46' boat priced at 75k. Whatever you do, read carefully what I wrote when I said be prepared to spend double your estimates and take double the hours to do it...for this..or any older boat as you will always find something defective or in need of repair or replacement and your brief visit and few photos are not of a lot of help. Take it or leave my advice--or just write a long and detailed letter excoriating me for trying to help you in a straightforward manner. But perhaps you have already given your answer and intention as you wrote "And I'm certainly not going to pay $75K for this boat." I hope it works out for you, or if not, that you find another suitable boat.
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Old 20-09-2016, 00:15   #12
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Re: Requesting Opinions On Potential Purchase

Quote:
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Is all that black stuff mold? Don't buy a moldy boat.

I wish I knew. Maybe TCL will respond a bit later...appears a bit tied up right now getting chewed out by PA. ANN.
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Old 20-09-2016, 07:15   #13
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Re: Requesting Opinions On Potential Purchase

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On the skeg/shaft strut, I guess what threw me is that no bolts are apparent -- unlike the photo that Davidhoy posted of his. Perhaps the bolts are covered over by glass or, as you say, maybe it's just glassed.
The holes are probably filled with fairing compound. You know, less drag, critically important on a 30,000lb full keel boat that sails much like a barge ;-)

-David
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Old 20-09-2016, 07:29   #14
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Re: Requesting Opinions On Potential Purchase

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Annapolis View Post
You wrote "so instead I'll give you a little credit and assume that the miscommunication was my fault." I would say that is a reasonable assumption on your part. Once again, this is proof that no good deed goes unpunished. I believe I gave you sincere, well-intentioned and honest advice based on my experience and I stand by it. You are looking at a 35 year old 46' boat priced at 75k. Whatever you do, read carefully what I wrote when I said be prepared to spend double your estimates and take double the hours to do it...for this..or any older boat as you will always find something defective or in need of repair or replacement and your brief visit and few photos are not of a lot of help. Take it or leave my advice--or just write a long and detailed letter excoriating me for trying to help you in a straightforward manner. But perhaps you have already given your answer and intention as you wrote "And I'm certainly not going to pay $75K for this boat." I hope it works out for you, or if not, that you find another suitable boat.
Hi Paul,

I must admit that I got the same sense as TCL did when I read your original message. It did come across a little condescending, and I understand his reaction to it. Electronic communications are horrible at conveying the tone of what you're trying to say. Sadly your subsequent response was similarly confrontational. You make some very valid points about getting a professional survey, costs, etc, but they just get buried in the other stuff. I know you mean well, most of us here really do want to help each other. But consider how you are conveying your thoughts, not just the content...

Respectfully,
David.
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Old 20-09-2016, 07:42   #15
TCL
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Re: Requesting Opinions On Potential Purchase

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[P]erhaps you have already given your answer and intention as you wrote "And I'm certainly not going to pay $75K for this boat."
I'm not trying to prolong a back-and-forth with Paul, but for the benefit of anyone else reading the thread who might have thoughts that they would forego sharing if they thought I'd already made a decision: I've not made any decision. The statement "I'm certainly not going to pay $75K for this boat" simply meant that I'm certainly not going to pay 99.4% of asking price. I'd have thought that would've been obvious, but perhaps not.

Thanks.
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