Reliance 44 Cutter Ketch

[johnpair]

Mr. Robert Perry,
We, as non boat designers (I design other technologies) learn from what we read, and when the symptoms of boatitis strike, we tend to read a lot more and more often on the subject of boats than any other matter (at least I do).
I quote: The Valiant interior was different when it was first introduced. (Actually, I borrowed it from an old Phil Rhodes design.) Today, it is a very traditional layout...

[shilo96]

johnpair,

To say the seller is motivated would be an understatement. I happen to know him and how he cares for his boat. I would highly recommend taking a look at it if you are interested. It doesn't cost anything to look they say, but then that is what I said right before I purchased my last boat.

[johnpair]

shilo96,
I'm located in Toronto, so first, I think I will look at boats in the region of the east coast, and make my way down to FL, there are a few Valiant 40s/42s in the area.
Don't forget, I am also very keen on a very nice Lord Nelson, less than fifteen minutes from where I live (I know, I know, apples and oranges) and given the economic situation plus now, our political system in complete turmoil, it is definitely not a seller's market... so patience my friend, is a virtue

[Solosailor]

Shilo96

You have a Pearson Ketch you say? I saw a beautiful Pearson Ketch at sea this summer. Lovely lines. It had a very attractive woman at the helm with classic lines. What a well-balanced combination!

How do the Pearson’s sail? Perhaps this is a boat I should consider?

[shilo96]

Solosailor,

If the boat was headed south, with a bumper sticker that read, "So much water, so little time" it was probably me you saw. But that's another story...

My girl sails well, points relatively high for a 3/4 keel, very stable offshore, probably would sail faster if I removed that 400' of chain from the bow locker.


After reading all the discussion on nomenclature, I fear my choices for my vessel design are a cuttetch or a double stayed ketch. I better break the news to my girl tomorrow...and she once stood so proud.

[bob perry]

"no reference to the original Phil Rhodes interior. "
John, those are your words.

I hate it when someone quotes my own words back at me to refute something I have just said. Dohhh!

Like I said, I studied the work of Rhodes so much that even today it's impossible for me to draw anything that does not take some influence from his work. In the case of the V 40 I must have been referring to the quarter cabin and the offset companionway required to make it work. But to call the original layout a "Phil Rhodes interior" is at best a stretch.

[johnpair]

Mr. Robert Perry,
The book is called Sailing Designs, Volume Four. The design reviews of Robert H. Perry as published in Sailing Magazine.
Page 108, Valiant 40: The performance -cruiser, third column, the fourth paragraph reads: The Valiant interior was different when it was introduced. (Actually I borrowed it from an old Phil Rhodes design.)
As I said, I learn from literature, and I have, in my boat literature collection three of the four volumes.
No reference to the original Phil Rhodes interior meant just that. By reading the book, one would justifiably think that the first Valiants 40 had a (borrowed) Phil Rhodes interior, and yes, it would have been nice for the "writer" of the article sent to me in this forum to make a reference to that effect.
If, however, the information written in Sailing Designs Volume four is not true, that is not my problem, perhaps you can correct it.
One way or the other, it really does not make any difference to me, I couldn't tell a Phil Rhodes from a Bill Tripp, what's important is I can tell a nice boat.
J.P.

[bob perry]

John:
at the risk of beating this to death let me direct you to a Rhodes design, the Rhodes RELIANT. Rhodes produced a number of designs with the same offset companionway. Note that it is quite different from the V 40 companionway in that it is moved well forward from the aft end of the house. If you need to find a Rhodes reference for the V 40 layout I think this is the best one. As you study the Rhodes design I think you will find that the Rhodes design and the V40 share absolutely nothing in common other than the offset companionway. However, you could say, accurately, that almost the entire layout grew from the offset companionway detail. But, if we are going to be strictly accurate, there is no "original Rhodes layout" for the Valiant 40. Sorry if I mislead you.

As for accuracy in my reviews: I'm comfortable with the degree of accuracy. I have about 600 words allotted to me per review. There is only so much you can explain in 600 words. Each moth I am faced with the dilema of exactly how much to explain to the reader. Many years ago I decided to assume a fairly high level of understanding of yacht design in my readers.

[johnpair]

Bob,
I don't feel mislead at all, as I said, Phil Rhodes, Bill Tripp, William Garden, Sparkman and Stephens all have designed nice boats to look at and obviously sail as well, It doesn't make that much difference to me. Not being a boat designer (I can't speak for others who are not boat designers) but I take what I read to the word. For example, volume three Sailing Designs, page 192, you discuss The Hunter 54: ULDB type cruising cutter. I read this article over and over, for some reason I have always found the cutter rig clean and aesthetically pleasing. The Hunter 54 was what I wanted, small for 54 feet of length and manageable (for a non sailor like me). Started looking, found one in FL and bought it the minute I stepped on it.
If it had not been for Sailing Designs, Volume Three, I would have simply never learned to sail.
Did I say Valiant 40?
J.P.

[bob perry]

John:
if you were discusing the original layout it had to have been the V-40. That's where it all started. The V 42 is just a V 40 with a bowsprit and some interior options that I had very little to do with.

Happy to hear that what I wrote helped get you into sailing. That's a nice thought to end the day with. Thanks.

[johnpair]

Bob,
If mooring, dockage and marina slip fees had not quadrupled in the last ten years, maybe another one would not have been out of the question. That boat was fast and fun, and since I never pretended to compare to the ranks of the likes of Vasco de Gama, Magellan, or Chris. Columbus, that boat was "good" enough for me, quick, very quick to the Bahamas and back.
Things have changed a little bit over the years, and perhaps knowing that I don't really need 50' of boat to live in, and also that I now know how to sail, the double enders, Collin Archer types, the Valiants, the Lord Nelsons, the Hans Christians, the Babas etc., certainly have attracted my attention, they are mostly cutters and I am set on the sail configuration. 40 feet of boat, I realize now is sufficient for one (or two)
J.P.

[Wolfhound]

Not to rake the ashes of an old argument looking for a live coal, but when I was a boy, IIRC, what some now call a "cutter ketch" was sometimes referred to as a staysail ketch.

A yawl that was rigged for two headsails was called a staysail yawl.

Does anyone else recall that terminology?

There was also the "mule," of which Irving Johnson was a big exponent. But, that's another story...

[Cheechako]

Yep, all seem appropriate to me...

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by Wolfhound

Not to rake the ashes of an old argument looking for a live coal, but when I was a boy, IIRC, what some now call a "cutter ketch" was sometimes referred to as a staysail ketch.

A yawl that was rigged for two headsails was called a staysail yawl.

Does anyone else recall that terminology?

There was also the "mule," of which Irving Johnson was a big exponent. But, that's another story...

Yes. My friend's Goderich 40, drawn by Bob Wallstrom, with whom I had the pleasure of corresponding some years ago, has always been referred to me as a "cutter-rigger ketch" or "cutter ketch".



The ketch part comes from the mizzen being forward of the rudder post. A yawl has it aft. The cutter part is predicated not on the presence of a staysail, as a sloop can have that, but on the position of the mainmast.

This is my cutter:



Note how the staysail stay is farther forward than in the cutter ketch. This is because I carry my genoa/working jib farther forward still, on a stout sprit. Probably the secret to the unexpectedly brisk tacks.



The designer's lines clearly show the mast smack at the midpoint of the LOD...hence, "cutter", or "masthead cutter" if you want to indicate that the forestay goes to the masthead.

Between the two rare examples of boats that aren't Bermuda-rigged sloops, cutters are more popular, but a well-designed ketch is a joy to sail on passage, because you can so easily and calmly reduce sail, and the mizzen, if properly stayed, can use a "mizzen staysail" to increase the light-air sail are phenomenally. This is why some of the best boats of the past in the race area were ketches and yawls...they had the horsepower the sloops sometimes lacked.