Reliance 44 Cutter Ketch

[imagine2frolic]

stirring the kettle a wee bit .....huh Bob

[Solosailor]

I obviously don't know what distinguishes a Ketch for a Cutter. Obvious difference is the presents of a Mizzen in the cast of the Ketch. As for the Cutter, I thought two head sails means it's Cutter rigged? I believe you will now correct me by telling me that a true Cutter has the (single) mast set further aft vs a sloop? Believe me, I don't not profess to be knowledgeable in these matters.

Sorry I can't give you an argument...

Sometimes this forum seems more like a Faulty Towers episode....

Don't mention the war...

Better yet, the Goons (sp?).
Good morning, I have come to buy an argument....

[johnpair]

Complicated stuff, I wouldn't argue about Christianity with the Pope, physics with Einstein, or sail plan configurations with Robert Perry.
Personally, I'm interested in the Valiant 40/42, and I have a few questions for Bob, so I don't want to start pushing the wrong buttons and make a fool of myself.

J.P.

[Southern Star]

My point precisely (not the 3 2 min rounds w/16 oz. gloves) - but that there are no 'ketchutters'. And Bob, nice picture - now I know why some people think your designs belong to another era.

Brad

[johnpair]

Anyways, the answer is:
CALLIE MAE, 42' Valiant SE. KETCH/CUTTER, 1998
Pensacola FL. Y.W.# 7346-1651059
So, there. Cutter Ketch.

[Stillraining]

Twin headed or double headed Ketch is the corect terminology...there is no such thing as a cutter ketch..it has become an unappreciated but accepted slang term among many unfortunately.

[roverhi]

It's a double headsail ketch. End of argument
Aloha
Peter O.
Pearson 35

[johnpair]

Really?
So then, what's a cutter rigged ketch or, cutter rigged sloop. Any body ever seen a cutter rigged yawl?

[Southern Star]

Precisely - and thankfully. Otherwise I guess we'd might have to start talking about 'sloop ketches', 'sloop yawls' and 'sloop schooners' for boats with two masts, but only a single headsail. Or sloops with detachable inner stays would presumably become 'part-time cutter sloops'.

As to the Reliance 44, I've seen a few under anchor and can say that they are very pretty indeed - lovely sheer, a well proportioned coachouse, relatively narrow beam and a counter transom. They certainly look salty, but beyond the virtues that were extolled in their original advertisements (and the fact that the ones I have seen were seemingly equipped for extended voyaging), I can offer no real help as to how well they sail, or were constructed. Based upon the hull design (which looks similar to many of Carl Alberg's designs from the 1960's), I would guess that she would be pretty well balanced under sail, initially tender but with good ultimate stability, and have a nice sea-kindly motion.

Brad

[Southern Star]

Johnpair the point is that two headsails, even on two distinct stays, does not make a boat a cutter.

Brad

[bob perry]

I really don't care what you call those rigs but for me it is important if I am writing an article that I have my nomenclature correct. I think sloops, cutters, ketches, yawls and schooners are what they are regardless of how many headsails they are carrying.
For me it's all about the masts and their placement.

Southern Star's post is funny. Is a schooner with one headsail a schooner sloop or a sloop schooner? Now this is fun.

I wasn't trying to have a dig at anyone. Some of this stuff is fun to debate from time to time. In doing so I always learn something.

[zeppelin]

So, is a cutter rigged sloop a "slutter"?

[johnpair]

Southern Star,
The designer of the Reliance 44 as I mentioned earlier in this post borrowed liberally from an older, 1965 C & C design, of which two ocean racing sloops were made. Apparently (from a very knowledgeable source) these two boats were made of aluminum by a window manufacturer. The names of these boats were Ivanhoe and Psyche. I was interested in Ivanhoe a while back, and I still have the original C & C drawings. I was also interested in the Ottawa area Reliance 44 project and I also have copies of the original drawings, they almost look identical, except the C & C lines are a bit finer and definitely more gracious.
I've seen some very nice looking Reliance 44s, but I also have seen some disasters and others that were so overbuilt, they couldn't sail themselves out of a wet paper bag in 20kt of wind.

[johnpair]

Having just about looked at (online) all the Valiants 40s/42s for sale, I have decided that a Valiant 40/42 will be my next cruiser/liveaboard.
I have read that after a few 40s were produced, the designer (Robert Perry) and the manufacturer (Uniflite) decided to add ballast and observe stability. The change apparently resulted in closer and faster boats upwind. In order to optimize the performance of both deep and shoal draft Valiants, the keel was once more redesigned, with every aspect of performance improved, keel number three.
My question is when did these changes take place, or what hull numbers and years of production would these keels be on.
Are the Valiants with the redesigned shoal draft keels as fast and as close upwind as the Valiants with deep keels?
Finally, how do the Valiants with center boards compare.

I look forward to the answer with many thanks.

J.P.

[Connemara]

Originally Posted by zeppelin

So, is a cutter rigged sloop a "slutter"?

or possibly a crooper



Connemara