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Old 04-04-2016, 19:56   #121
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
With a 35ft cat you pay the price of a 80ft mono? That seems vastly exaggerated and I never saw that. on the med more and more marinas adopt a policy that makes sense charging for the square meter, well kind off, what it is obtained by multiplying beam by length and in what regards that cats pay about the double for the same length.

A 80ft mono would have a big beam so it is kind of strange that it would pay the same as a small cat.

Regarding this:

"So, for a given price, the cat is: * Shorter - helps offset the marina fees. "

It seems to me not true and a vast exaggeration on the other sense: Considering the same length a catamaran has not the double interior space of a modern beamy monohull.
Suggest you need to travel more,

I can assure you double is the rate in Singapore , here is the exact email from the marina

"My apologies for the overlook on my side, the actual charge should be:


(38ft x $1.14) x 2 = $86.64 / day (before 7% GST)

As it is a catamaran, it will be double charge. Please find attached rates for your perusal.

My apologies for any inconvenience caused."
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Old 04-04-2016, 19:58   #122
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
You are right on that one, it has nothing to do with the builders, it pisses the builders and it was not made (and actualized) by bureaucrats but by a technical committee of NA and NE after an extensive debate by a huge number of NA all over Europe and even with the participation of some American ones.
Is this the same bunch that decided to use brass thu hulls instead of bronze. And the builders had no impute, right! A bit naive don't you think?
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Old 05-04-2016, 01:51   #123
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Statistically there is no difference between the safety of cats vs monos.


I always felt uncomfortable, and even frightened sailing a catamaran in strong conditions, because you can't feel when you're getting overpowered. It feels like you might flip!

But I think that this is a question of familiarity. I imagine you get used to it, and learn to read different clues, than what we use on monos.

In strong conditions your likelihood of capsizing actually reduces. Because as you reduce sail, your centre of effort gets lower, so your margin of safety gets bigger.

That is to say, it would take a seriously strong gust to be a worry when we have a reef in. We've had a 38 knots TWS gust hit us with full main and headsail, sailing close hauled. Didn't lift a hull, but it certainly got my attention. We were passing 18 knots when I looked at the log, while easing the mainsheet. You can definitely feel when you get powered up that much!

In stronger winds, with a reef in, I don't know how much of a gust it would take to lift a hull, but it would need to be significant. With 2 or 3 reefs in...
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Old 05-04-2016, 03:48   #124
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

My perspective is, if it floats, I like it, if it is designed to sink, I like it too.

A couple of points/observations:

1) Make sure what you want either sails well, or is a Marina Condo - don't mix them up;

2) From the usage characteristics I have seen, the vast majority of Catamaran buyers would seem to be far better off with a trawler. They are mostly motoring with motors that are too small and not heavy duty enough for such usage patterns (motors seem to be being replaced way too frequently).

I get the impression that a trawler would be far better value for the living space, and an average buyer would probably not live long enough to catch up in fuel costs (though I may be wrong about that). Savings in annual maintenance would not be insignificant either (no sticks, strings, wires, or large amounts of washing to keep on top of).

There's a lot to be said for a proper engine(s) in a proper engine room.
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Old 05-04-2016, 04:09   #125
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Originally Posted by Sandero View Post
One aspect of sail trim in not heavy air upwind.... when the boat is in the grove it will tell you by the heel... even when the sail "looks" ok (assuming no tell tails)...cats don't heel and so the sails aren't telling you as much about their trim because the boat doesn't stand up or heel more... sure speed changes... so you need to be looking at your (inaccurate) fouled speedo reading. Caveat... I have not sailed a cat...
you look at bow wave height, stern wave shape, sound of water.

https://vimeo.com/161167296

regarding mono advantages I found these in my research :

-heavy monos better for bad weather
-better sailing in light winds and choppy seas
-better windward abilities although preference of cruisers is not to sail against wind if possible.
- cheaper mooring especially med
-price

We were close to go for mono and found this new 38 ft benetau model without wall in front room (cool) and price was just 30% less than our cat.

ridiculously priced, that was last time ever I looked at mono.
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Old 05-04-2016, 04:15   #126
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
In strong conditions your likelihood of capsizing actually reduces. Because as you reduce sail, your centre of effort gets lower, so your margin of safety gets bigger.

That is to say, it would take a seriously strong gust to be a worry when we have a reef in. We've had a 38 knots TWS gust hit us with full main and headsail, sailing close hauled. Didn't lift a hull, but it certainly got my attention. We were passing 18 knots when I looked at the log, while easing the mainsheet. You can definitely feel when you get powered up that much!

In stronger winds, with a reef in, I don't know how much of a gust it would take to lift a hull, but it would need to be significant. With 2 or 3 reefs in...
That sounds plausible to me.

Nevertheless, an Atlantic 57 did go over recently, and it happens regularly.

I guess it's not more frequent than monos sinking, but as it is an alien problem for those accustomed to monos, it is frightening, maybe irrationally.
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Old 05-04-2016, 04:15   #127
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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With a 35ft cat you pay the price of a 80ft mono? That seems vastly exaggerated and I never saw that.
I know you are the expert on anything European ... at least in your own opinion but this is very common.

Did you read the example I posted?

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Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle View Post
- Big steel, 50' x 16,5' steel powerboat, charged for 50' length = € 3.740
- Prout Snowgoose, 37' x 15', charged 1,5 times 37' length = € 3.570
(Length price for 37' is € 2.380)
So a 37' cat pays nearly as much as a 50' mono - which is actually wider then the cat. But, having only one hull, he gets charged length fee only. As if it matters how many hulls a boat has ...

That is very common - and most marinas will go as far as simply charging cats double, not "just" 1,5 times length price.

The cat in that example has left; they are tired of the 1,5 / 2 times length fees and couldn't find a marina not charging extra simply for being a cat, regardless of the width and the fact that there's usually a more narrow boat that'll fit in the slip with them (which is what they do here as well, so the slip gets them 2,5 times the normal income, which is a nice bonus ... ).
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Old 05-04-2016, 04:16   #128
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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you look at bow wave height, stern wave shape, sound of water.
So you only sail in daylight then?

PS Sorry I just couldn't resist.
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Old 05-04-2016, 04:27   #129
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle View Post

I know you are the expert on anything European ... at least in your own opinion but this is very common.

Great (and accurate ) broadside. Luckily my new laptop has a coffee proof keyboard. Not too sure about the screen though.

Your numbers on powerboats (trawlers) are precisely why I think the vast majority of catamaran owners, are buying completely the wrong boat.
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Old 05-04-2016, 04:31   #130
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Originally Posted by Ribbit View Post
My perspective is, if it floats, I like it, if it is designed to sink, I like it too.

A couple of points/observations:

1) Make sure what you want either sails well, or is a Marina Condo - don't mix them up;

2) From the usage characteristics I have seen, the vast majority of Catamaran buyers would seem to be far better off with a trawler. They are mostly motoring with motors that are too small and not heavy duty enough for such usage patterns (motors seem to be being replaced way too frequently).

I get the impression that a trawler would be far better value for the living space, and an average buyer would probably not live long enough to catch up in fuel costs (though I may be wrong about that). Savings in annual maintenance would not be insignificant either (no sticks, strings, wires, or large amounts of washing to keep on top of).

There's a lot to be said for a proper engine(s) in a proper engine room.
Horses for courses -- it depends on how you intend to use it. If you're using the boat as a dockside condo, then I agree with you. For puttering around the ICW, a trawler is perfect. But for wider ranging cruising, especially in ocean conditions, I don't see much advantage of a trawler over a cat, other than the lovely engine room.

On the contrary, trawlers, unless they have stabilizers, have horrible motion, with tendency to roll and wallow, in a real seaway. They are much better suited to sheltered waters, inland waterways, short coastal hops in good weather. Catamarans, on the other hand, are very resistant to rolling and make superb motorboats in all kinds of weather and conditions. The sails give unlimited range, and the ability to -- well, sail -- when you feel like it. No comparison, if you're spending much time away from the dock, and/or in unsheltered waters, in my opinion.

If for some reason I wanted a motorboat, without any sails, I would definitely go with a catamaran. I'm a mono guy under sail, but for motorboats too small to have stabilizers -- a cat in my opinion is a no-brainer.

Over 70 or 80 feet is a different question, of course. Then I would start to look at Dashew's FPB, or maybe a nice older Feadship . . .
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Old 05-04-2016, 04:40   #131
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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So you only sail in daylight then?

PS Sorry I just couldn't resist.
Mostly daylight. I am preparing for larger trips soon.

At night you still have sound of water. In bad weather at night, not much else but gps & speedo.

At night prudent sailor would shorten sails anyway for 2 extra reefs, no?
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Old 05-04-2016, 04:41   #132
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Horses for courses -- it depends on how you intend to use it. If you're using the boat as a dockside condo, then I agree with you. For puttering around the ICW, a trawler is perfect. But for wider ranging cruising, especially in ocean conditions, I don't see much advantage of a trawler over a cat, other than the lovely engine room.

On the contrary, trawlers, unless they have stabilizers, have horrible motion, with tendency to roll and wallow, in a real seaway. They are much better suited to sheltered waters, inland waterways, short coastal hops in good weather.

Fair points DH (which I have extracted).

My point is that the emphasised part I quoted, is what applies to most cat owners?

For those that actually sail rather than motor all the time, it's a completely different matter?
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Old 05-04-2016, 04:44   #133
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Mostly daylight. I am preparing for larger trips soon.

At night you still have sound of water. In bad weather at night, not much else but gps & speedo.

At night prudent sailor would shorten sails anyway for 2 extra reefs, no?
Quite right indeed, I just couldn't resist the grin factor.
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Old 05-04-2016, 04:45   #134
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
Mostly daylight. I am preparing for larger trips soon.

At night you still have sound of water. In bad weather at night, not much else but gps & speedo.

At night prudent sailor would shorten sails anyway for 2 extra reefs, no?
Sound of the water over a howling gale? I don't think so.

I think there must be a way to feel it, but it's a mystery to us mono guys.

I've done some cat sailing, and I had no clue whatsoever whether I was getting overpowered or not. I had to judge by the wind instrument and log, and I was very conservative, because I was afraid.

I think this is exactly what Polux was talking about, when he said that actual passage speeds of cats on long ocean passages like the ARC tends to be the same as monos, even performance cats. His theory is that cats on long passages must be sailed more conservatively, because of this issue. I think he may be on to something.
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Old 05-04-2016, 04:46   #135
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Originally Posted by Andrew Grace View Post
Suggest you need to travel more,

I can assure you double is the rate in Singapore , here is the exact email from the marina

"My apologies for the overlook on my side, the actual charge should be:


(38ft x $1.14) x 2 = $86.64 / day (before 7% GST)

As it is a catamaran, it will be double charge. Please find attached rates for your perusal.

My apologies for any inconvenience caused."
It seems to me that you should check your maths. 80ft is not the double of 35ft and therefore I continue not to know of any place that charges for a 35ft cat the same as for a 80ft mono hull.

Besides that I only said that on the med, where most sailboats are, the more common measurement regarding price is beamXlength and that in fact gives about the double regarding boats with similar length, but not the same price regarding boats with double length, being the cat the smaller.

No inconvenience caused.
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