Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 28-06-2016, 06:13   #406
Registered User
 
RKsailsolo's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: St Paul, US
Boat: Jeanneau 349 2015
Posts: 677
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Quote:
Originally Posted by double u View Post
...very emotional, the subject, very...

& everybody claims his/her boat (of course) is best...

having been around a bit in my heydays I was then always waiting for a multihull with the same pricetag, age & payload as our keeler to beat our passagetimes...

of course this was in the 90ies...

seems reasonable to me that, both boattypes having evolved since then their "relative capability" is still the same:

a well chosen monohull (& here we have another mono-advantage: a huge market to choose from!) with the same payload as the lagoon 44, same age, same price will be minimum 1 day earlier in the Marquesas

to compare a cat with a mono of the same length is of course ridiculous!

to come back to "emotions": when charging through a squally night my mind was far more at ease on the keelboat than on the cat, where I was always "on action stations"...

400 posts later, Doubleu's entry contributes something new. Thanks.
__________________

__________________
RKsailsolo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-06-2016, 07:04   #407
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,863
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Quote:
Originally Posted by double u View Post
...a well chosen monohull (& here we have another mono-advantage: a huge market to choose from!) with the same payload as the lagoon 44, same age, same price will be minimum 1 day earlier in the Marquesas
...
Care to elaborate on that.

A mono with the same payload is likely in the mid 30' range which means a significantly lower hull speed. It will of course be significantly cheaper than a 44' cat....so there really is no such comparable boat.

Or are you implying accommodation space when you say payload in which case the equivalent of a 44' cat would likely be a 55' mono that costs a similar amount to purchase and as much or more to maintain but has a much larger payload. On a downhill run, I would expect similar passage times.

Realistically in that size range, payload is largely irrelevant for typical cruisers with small crews. At that size pretty much any boat can carry enough to supply the crews needs with ease. It's not until you get down around 30' that payload really becomes relevant.

So it's unclear what you are considering a "comparable" mono that can beat the cat.
__________________

__________________
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-06-2016, 08:04   #408
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 15,335
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Quote:
Originally Posted by double u View Post

(...)

& everybody claims his/her boat (of course) is best...

(...)
Nay.

I never say our boat is the best. I can see so many limitations that in fact other posters often ask me: 'If your boat is this bad, why do you sail it?'.

Well, the answer is very simple: Because this is what I have.

Not everybody. Some do, some do not.

b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-06-2016, 09:18   #409
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 12,094
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Grace View Post
I don't think there are many cruising boaters that sail to windward that much , that said , my cat sails to windward and tacks better than my Moody 36ever did.
I don't like bashing to windward, and my boat is not the best suited for it either, but sure as heck it seems no matter the direction of my destination, the wind will be plus or minus 30 degrees off the bow, as much as 90 degrees from forecasted.
I figure I must be paying some sort of dues for past sins or something, those rare days of downwind sailing and following seas are few and far between for me, and I admit to using the Yanmar far more than I like to as well.
__________________
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-06-2016, 09:25   #410
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,161
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Care to elaborate on that.

A mono with the same payload is likely in the mid 30' range which means a significantly lower hull speed. It will of course be significantly cheaper than a 44' cat....so there really is no such comparable boat.

Or are you implying accommodation space when you say payload in which case the equivalent of a 44' cat would likely be a 55' mono that costs a similar amount to purchase and as much or more to maintain but has a much larger payload. On a downhill run, I would expect similar passage times.

Realistically in that size range, payload is largely irrelevant for typical cruisers with small crews. At that size pretty much any boat can carry enough to supply the crews needs with ease. It's not until you get down around 30' that payload really becomes relevant.

So it's unclear what you are considering a "comparable" mono that can beat the cat.
To begin with Im not slagging Cats as I like them. We cruised for a few months with 9 cats in our group ranging from thirty to fifty ft and for what its worth Ill tell you my findings. All the Cats but 2 were very heavily loaded and it really showed in performance. The smallest a thirty footer never made much better than 5 knots in any conditions and sometimes less. Going to windward our 42 foot mono was faster than almost all of them. On a reach the lighter cats did very well and the heavy ones were similar to monos. On a run if the wind averaged 15 knots our mono had no problem staying with all but the largest lightest cats. When the winds were twenty knots and above most of the cats were faster on the run but the heavy weights were just slightly faster.
We were at anchor much longer than we sailed and even the thirty footer Cat had a better cockpit and seating area than our mono so no contest. The larger cats could entertain dozens of folks with ease.
We had a 57 foot mono in our group and it was the fastest boat in any weather. Some of the differences would be based on sailing experience and my observation was on average the Cat guys were newer sailors so more experienced cat sailors may have gotten better performance from the boats. I think in the end it got down to overloading the mid sized cats 4O to 45 ft with everything including washers, huge dinks and motors,compressors,dive gear, cases of wine, multi cases of everything you name it, they had it. So in the end way more room in a Cat, lovely layouts for groups to gather but very little if any additional performance.
__________________
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-06-2016, 04:22   #411
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 250
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

"payload" for me is exactly what it says: "load", not "accomodation-volume".
lets say purchasing-budget is 120.000 US, a couple, unlimited rtw cruising i.e. provisions, water, spares, fuel, books & cruising junk (yes mountainbikes!) - now show me the cat that is going to beat a monohull of the same age, except on a few very selected passages!
a suitable cat will have to be 42' upwards - for the same money the mono will be 45' or longer & will be no slouch either (& please lets now not compare this tri
https://www.facebook.com/Ave-Gitana-536355233151783/
to this mono:
2007 Hallberg-Rassy 40 Classic Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com )
__________________
double u is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-06-2016, 11:10   #412
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Schooner Chandlery's Avatar

Community Sponsor

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: home port Washington DC
Boat: SS Crocker design #131
Posts: 914
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Such a lengthy thread. The best reason to stay mono? Because that's what I have and that's what I like when ocean sailing. 😀


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
"The only noble thing a man can do with money is to build a schooner." Robert Louis Stevenson

Schooner Chandlery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-06-2016, 12:20   #413
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,863
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Quote:
Originally Posted by double u View Post
"payload" for me is exactly what it says: "load", not "accomodation-volume".
lets say purchasing-budget is 120.000 US, a couple, unlimited rtw cruising i.e. provisions, water, spares, fuel, books & cruising junk (yes mountainbikes!) - now show me the cat that is going to beat a monohull of the same age, except on a few very selected passages!
a suitable cat will have to be 42' upwards - for the same money the mono will be 45' or longer & will be no slouch either (& please lets now not compare this tri
https://www.facebook.com/Ave-Gitana-536355233151783/
to this mono:
2007 Hallberg-Rassy 40 Classic Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com )
If it's payload, then the cat should win easily.

That 42' cat is likely going up against a 36-38' mono as comparable payload. I'll give that to the cat every time.
__________________
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-06-2016, 13:09   #414
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,161
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
If it's payload, then the cat should win easily.

That 42' cat is likely going up against a 36-38' mono as comparable payload. I'll give that to the cat every time.
Your right I'm sure but in my experience the cats are much more sensitive to overloading than a mono. I could really see it in their performance under sail. Even the forces on the rig are less forgiving as a cat has to absorb those forces while a mono heels and reduces the rig loads. Not a knock on any one but in my experience the better and more experienced sailors on cats were the same ones that ensured they were kept on the lighter side, they were the fast guys.
__________________
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-06-2016, 13:29   #415
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,863
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Your right I'm sure but in my experience the cats are much more sensitive to overloading than a mono. I could really see it in their performance under sail. Even the forces on the rig are less forgiving as a cat has to absorb those forces while a mono heels and reduces the rig loads. Not a knock on any one but in my experience the better and more experienced sailors on cats were the same ones that ensured they were kept on the lighter side, they were the fast guys.
I agree, a 42' cat will typically slow down to the speed of a 42' mono if you overload it but there really is no reason to overload it.

That's why I was trying to understand why he was focused on payload. By the time you get into the 40' boats payload is a non-issue.

As you pointed out for 30' cats, payload is a consideration for long passages though 5kt top end does seem pretty low. Even heavily loaded 6-7kts with a decent breeze should be easy even when a bit overloaded.
__________________
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-06-2016, 20:08   #416
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,161
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
I agree, a 42' cat will typically slow down to the speed of a 42' mono if you overload it but there really is no reason to overload it.

That's why I was trying to understand why he was focused on payload. By the time you get into the 40' boats payload is a non-issue.

As you pointed out for 30' cats, payload is a consideration for long passages though 5kt top end does seem pretty low. Even heavily loaded 6-7kts with a decent breeze should be easy even when a bit overloaded.
I have to tell you that I didn't want to create any storms about cats vs monos so on the little cat I was actually overstating his progress thru the water. He was doing 4 to 5 knots on average and never 6 to 7, he was overloaded but I cant say just how much, probably a lot. He crossed the Atlantic in that little ship but it was a very long passage.
__________________
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-06-2016, 20:14   #417
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Sydney
Boat: Wanted: Schionning GForce 1400
Posts: 438
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
I have to tell you that I didn't want to create any storms about cats vs monos so on the little cat I was actually overstating his progress thru the water. He was doing 4 to 5 knots on average and never 6 to 7, he was overloaded but I cant say just how much, probably a lot. He crossed the Atlantic in that little ship but it was a very long passage.
Do you know what design it was?
__________________
tp12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-06-2016, 20:21   #418
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,161
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Your right I'm sure but in my experience the cats are much more sensitive to overloading than a mono. I could really see it in their performance under sail. Even the forces on the rig are less forgiving as a cat has to absorb those forces while a mono heels and reduces the rig loads. Not a knock on any one but in my experience the better and more experienced sailors on cats were the same ones that ensured they were kept on the lighter side, they were the fast guys.
I have to say I am quite envious on the storage some of those cats have, many of them are just amazing however lots of the sailors really fill them and the stuff is very heavy. I was given a really good tour of several of the cats and I was amazed at what they were carrying. We have been crossing oceans for many years and I could never dream of bringing so many heavy items aboard but these days things have changed it seems and all the room and lockers on some of these boats almost encourages overloading but hey they are all having good times and loving the experience and who am I to judge what you need to bring. It does hurt the performance but none of the sailors seem to care but the few experienced cat masters were talking about it in a rather negative way.
__________________
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-06-2016, 20:23   #419
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,161
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Didn't mean to quote myself LOL, I'm either getting old or I need some sleep.
__________________
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2016, 04:56   #420
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 250
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
If it's payload, then the cat should win easily.

That 42' cat is likely going up against a 36-38' mono as comparable payload. I'll give that to the cat every time.
& how would the 42' cat compare costwise to the 36-38' mono...?
__________________

__________________
double u is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
hull, monohull

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Removable Cutter Stay vs Solent Stay Orchidius Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 16 30-06-2014 03:36
St Augustine - To stay or Not to stay alsobrsp Atlantic & the Caribbean 1 17-01-2013 13:07
For Sale: Stay sail, Storm Sail, & Head Stay MoonlightSailor Classifieds Archive 1 18-12-2009 11:27
For Sale: Stay sail, storm sail, & head stay MoonlightSailor Classifieds Archive 0 31-10-2009 17:25
Removable Stay(sail) or not to stay... jcmcdowell Monohull Sailboats 8 27-08-2004 15:30


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 17:16.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.