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Old 10-04-2016, 17:27   #331
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
No, I specifically did not mean what I like personally. These tastes are specifically geographical, and relate to conditions in which people sail, and the type of sailing they do.

Your idea is that "modern" boats are all wedgie sleds, and that anything else is just old-fashioned, and people only like boats which are not wedgie sleds, because they only like boats which are similar to the obsolete old boat they already have. This is pernicious nonsense.

There is a very large difference between the types of boats predominantly built and predominantly sold in Northern Europe, to those sold predominantly for use in the Med. It has nothing to do with bias towards old boats -- it has to do with the different conditions and different type of sailing.

Every type of boat has its advantages and disadvantages, and believe it or not, people who do not prefer "wedgies", might not prefer them despite fully understanding what they are, and not because they are merely ignorant. And likewise might not prefer a performance cruiser/racer, even if they like to sail fast (as I do).


You universalize your own type of sailing, and it seems you can't imagine that it's very different, at different latitudes (and distance from land). The kind of boats you like, are practically unknown up here, and that's not because sailors up here are ignorant.

Irrespective of latitude, there are plenty of cruisers who don't care much about sailing performance, and many of them buy boats like Island Packets and Rustlers. More power to them -- people should sail the way they like, and not the way someone else thinks they should. But even among those who, like me, like to sail fast and care a lot about performance, there are big differences at different latitudes, and the degree to which people sail offshore in strong conditions. One type of high performance boat does not suit all types of fast sailing. If I were sailing predominantly in the Med, or in mild latitudes, I would definitely want a lighter boat with a much larger rig. I might well go for some kind of wedgie -- would be a blast to sail. Or maybe a performance cat. But not up here.
Once again I can't understand why Polux has an issue with your posts. Has he accepted your 10,000 euro offer yet?
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Old 10-04-2016, 17:46   #332
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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. . . Has he accepted your 10,000 euro offer yet?
Sadly, he declined.

Experiencing for himself the Irish Sea in October (mean wind speed F7), would have opened his eyes a bit to why different sailors, may choose different boats, and -- may sail faster, maybe much faster, in boats which he considers obsolete and slow and doesn't understand the sense of.
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Old 10-04-2016, 19:33   #333
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"



I shouldn't really know what you're debating but the Ignore function is limited in that you can still see an ignored persons posts if someone quotes them ... There is just no reasoning with some people.

I can, otherwise, thoroughly recommend the Ignore function. It's great!

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Old 10-04-2016, 21:01   #334
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Polux, you are not wise to throw around the word "ignorance". Really. Have you ever sailed in Scandinavian waters? Not once -- did I guess right? Have you even ever been in Scandinavia altogether? As a matter of fact, I am a legal resident of one Scandinavian country, and only keep my boat in the UK in the winter (when the Baltic is frozen! ). I believe I know just slightly more about it than you do.


Oh come on. Nobody knows more about anything than Polux.
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Old 10-04-2016, 21:23   #335
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Oh come on. Nobody knows more about anything than Polux.
It's an occupational hazard typical for some professions
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Old 10-04-2016, 21:30   #336
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

I agree Polux comes across as a no it all sometimes but he does dedicate a big part of his time to sailboats and that shows in his knowledge base but there are many on this board that have been there and done that and have the direct experience and that also shows. We all have biases and no matter how hard we try to keep an open mind our biases are out there front and center. Polux doesn't do a great job in hiding his at times, I'm not much better.
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Old 10-04-2016, 21:51   #337
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Out typical Bay Area cat:



Unsuitable for cruising.
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Old 11-04-2016, 01:42   #338
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

This is a Hot post... I try to intervene with Grace.

Before judging, we must know some history of yachting.... namely:

- the divide between the "plank-on-edge" vs. the sand-bagger type (UK vs. US)
- the rating rules, influencing almost any new design since 1880 (when yachts were used as a racing horse only, or as day cruisers at most)
- evolution in sails cut/fabrics, and rigging
- market demand, sailing regions, draught limitations....

In my opinion, appendices played,and play , a much larger role than beam, displacement, shape..
I mean, keel shape, ballast, weight distribution!!, rigging are all of Greater importance than ,say,... how flared is a stern, or how fine are entry-lines.

The cost of a boat (production+dock fees) is run by LOA, that's why boats grew beamy. It helps in keeping a lesser ballast, which is another expensive item, and it reduces heeling (which many shy off, or get scared by...).
Also, an important draught implies a stiffer, more expensive mount... and is undesirable in some regions...

In the past, yacht making was an individual choice between yard/owner, nowadays your custom boat is about the choice of colors/cabins/head, rarely for or about "structure", as costs for a one-design are for the richest/racers only.

However, we have the advantage of say 70 years of tradition from different maritime cultures to cherry pick our boat to our needs...

I sail solo or with unreliable crew... thus, I need a comfortable sturdy reliable design facing any likely weather conditions in safety...
I needed size for stowage (not berths) and an important LWL to make for any slack in sails trimming, in good passage making, and to be able to sail in say F6/F7 with more comfort than in a lesser boat (i know how different is sailing on a 35' ...41'...47'...).


The boat I sail is Nauta54 . It is a IOR design (mildly pinched extremities) of an ocean racer from the S&S board of the mid 80s.

No fine entries, but upwind you need a powerful bow taking up the waves (short and steep in the Med)
My knees are BELOW the water line, as the engine is as well, and I walk UPON my tanks. These are must-haves , I say humbly, for any blue water. I feel secure, and reasonably unshacken.

Draught is 9' so I don't venture with any less than 5m of water...and give up a number of tiny harbours... OK for me.

And,,... Yes, LET ME BE POLEMIC once at least, I do not buy the concept of solo-handling by running lines to the cockpit, it is a nonsensical complication to me. I work fine at the mast foot. And Love running shrouds (a need for flexible masts).

Displacement is high, I don't have to mind adding up gear, ice-cream maker included, but I care WHERE, and how LOW I place it. Wooden cutlery up, silver cutlery down, metal gear bottom...

Yes, my boat is rolling more than a beamy one downwind (DDW being <10% of conditions, in the Med).

Ballast is important at 11tons with lead-bulb.
At 25kn of wind I sail with no reefing, heavy Genoa, the boat heeled 25 and, most important, a rock-solid deck, it stays motionless! This is comfort+seaworthiness in my view.

I don't claim my boat is any better, just stress how different qualities must be put under scrutiny, for a choice.

Sadly, I think I COULDN'T FIND A BOAT ALIKE BRAND NEW, AS BOATS OF THIS TYPE ARE NO MORE ON DEMAND, as expensive to run, slow, with no extra room inside... (maybe Baltic is the only possible choice...!?).

More generally..

Light & beamy is strong down-wind, cheaper, fast!, very good for social party on docks too, but honestly not my style, and slapping upon the waves... unbearable soon or earlier so.
Point is, with modern sails like code 0... you win regattas on reach courses.....
This dictated the current lines!


Fine entries were used a century ago, producing very wet decks in almost all conditions...

In the end, LWL is the big dictator... even AC racers didn't go any faster than 12-13kn as monohull.

However.....I regard speed as a safety issue only, for maneuvering with fun, no more. Is it a fault!? :-)

Fair winds to all, please stay calm, or Breezy at most:-)
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Old 11-04-2016, 02:40   #339
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
I agree Polux comes across as a no it all sometimes but he does dedicate a big part of his time to sailboats and that shows in his knowledge base but there are many on this board that have been there and done that and have the direct experience and that also shows. We all have biases and no matter how hard we try to keep an open mind our biases are out there front and center. Polux doesn't do a great job in hiding his at times, I'm not much better.
Polux is a wealth of knowledge and we're very lucky to have him on here. Our discussions would be much poorer without him.

Sometimes he doesn't know the limits of his own knowledge, but that's true of all of us from time to time, isn't it?
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Old 11-04-2016, 02:54   #340
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Polux is a wealth of knowledge and we're very lucky to have him on here. Our discussions would be much poorer without him.

Sometimes he doesn't know the limits of his own knowledge, but that's true of all of us from time to time, isn't it?
Knowledge is nothing without (self-) control :-)

PS in putting my post above more into this thread's perspective, I find none of the virtues I love in a boat magnified in any cats, possibly quite the contrary..

This is not a derogative comment, a criticism, a personal choice... that's the way it is...
Incidentally, I really love trimarans
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Old 11-04-2016, 06:43   #341
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

If not ignorance, meaning lack of knowledge about a subject, I can only take it by deliberate misleading information meaning that you have the knowledge but deliberately chose to provide wrong information and I don't think it was the case, I believe that it is real bias and not want to see reality as it is but as you would like it to be, regarding your particular tastes for boats.

For instance regarding this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
... X Yachts are made in Denmark for nouveau riche Russians (70% of their clientele AFAIK) who use them in Biscay and the Med....That is not a Scandinavian boat in any possible interpretation. A Scandinavian boat is a Swan, a Malo, a Sweden Yachts, a Najad, a Finnish Baltic Yachts, a Finngulf. I don't really count HR any more, as this is a company aspiring to make Beneteaus sold for high end boat prices -- a different conversation.
That is an absolute nonsense lacking any logic. You consider not as the modern Scandinavian boats the ones that are made there now and sold there in bigger numbers but the ones that you imagine that should be the typical Scandinavian boats. Not the reality, but your imagination.

Najad bankrupted several times was bought by a brand of Scandinavian performance cruisers (Swedestar) that today use the name Najad. They make also the old Najad by command but they sell more Swedestar that Najad being the true Najad almost non existent in what regards production.

Regarding Finngulf a double misleading information, the Finngulf are no more, they bankrupted some years ago and Finngulf are the same type of boat as X-yachts, very similar on all points as the type of sailors that bought them.

Sweden yachts bankrupted at even more time and the type of boats they made were between the two lines of performance boats X-yacht makes the XP and XC.

Malo has not bankrupted yet, it makes boats like the old Najad, but has diminished considerably his production and the demand is very scarce. There was a time were Malo and Najad seem to be competition to Halberg Rassy. Not anymore, not by a long shoot.

Baltic and Swan did not bankrupted, even if they were close at a time, but changed altogether their production, that is a very small one, to the production of big semi custom performance yachts. The only yacht Baltic is building right now is a 175ft yacht.
http://www.balticyachts.fi/yachts/under_construction

Regarding Swan the smallest thing they had till recently was a 60fter and much bigger performance luxury yachts. Now they are proposing also a 50ft racing yacht and a "cheap" (for Swan) old designed 54ft. Very few boats were made and the boat looks like a 20 year old X yachts. The same type of boat but with an outdated design. I believe they had done that on purpose trying to cash on the Swan nostalgia but they are not having success with it.

By far the Scandinavian shipyard that is making by far a larger number of boats is Halberg- Rassy and the 2th one X-yachts. A simple visit to a major boat show will tell you that. Space on a major boat show is very expensive and only big brands, brands that produce a lot of boats have the means to have several boats on exposition. Halberg-Rassy and X-yachts are the only Swedish brands that have a very significant number of boats on major boat shows.

Curiously you forget to mention Arcona that is probably the Scandinavian brand that is selling more after those too, a brand that produces boats with similar characteristics of X-yachts.

So, to you Halberg Rassy, the ones that sell more in Scandinavia, is not making Scandinavian boats, because they are making boats that you don't like, beamy boats with all beam pulled back and they are making lighter and lighter boats, always faster and more seaworthy.

X-Yachts, the ones that after HR are producing more and selling more in Scandinavia are not Scandinavian boats, because you don't like them and you think they are mostly sold to Russians (70% of them) to sail on the med

So, let's see about the med and those 70% of Russian owners:

A good measure to see the use that is given to the boats is to check the boats that are used for Atlantic passages (they go and they come back) and regarding that the more than 200 boats a year on the ARC provide reliable information.

In what concerns those boats you will find that regarding the overall number of Beneteaus and Oysters, you will find a much bigger percentage of Oysters doing it than Beneteaus showing that in fact Oyster owners do perceptually a much bigger use of their boats on passage than Beneteau Owners.

Let's look at those numbers regarding the number of Halberg-Rassy that like Oyster (and for the same reason) have on the ARC perceptually a big number of boats participate on the event and comparing that number with the ones of the X-yachts doing it, on the last two editions.

Off course we have to take in consideration that Halberg Rassy is making boats for a much longer time than X yachts and also that X yachts was for many years a very small production shipyard and only on the last 7 or 8 years have become a Scandinavian major brand.

On the last two ARC editions participated 13 Halberg-Rassy, a very considerable number and considerably more than the ones of other single brand of medium displacement cruisers, with exception to maybe Oyster even if many Oyster are not medium displacement cruisers.

On the last two editions the number of X-yachts doing the ARC was the same as the number of Halberg Rassy, 13 yachts, even if 3 of them have made it on the racing division and not on the cruising division.

And regarding those Russian med owners and this opinion of yours:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
When I wrote "up here", I was thinking about Northern European Atlantic nations, UK, Netherlands, Scotland, Norway, BUT -- the same culture in New Zealand and other places of similar latitude, maybe also BC and the PNW of North America.
None of the 13 boats was Russian but that 11 out of 13 were from North European, American or Australian owners and only two from the med (italians) : Norway 3, Netherlands 3, Great Britain 1, Australia 1, US 1, Germany 1, Austria 1.

So it seems you are talking about your sea culture and about the type of boats that you like and not about the ones that constitute the sea culture of those countries, that is diversified: Some like more for ocean sailing medium displacement boats, others like more performance cruisers to do that.

Since I was looking at numbers on the ARC I took the opportunity to have a deeper look at the difference of speed on the Atlantic passage, while cruising, between all those Halberg Rassy and X-Yacht considering the two editions of the ARC.

Since I am interested in loaded boats cruising I did not consider the 3 X-yacht that make it on the racing division and regarding maintaining comparable size I did not consider two smaller HR, a 31ft and a 35ft boat.

The average size of the X yacht was 45.2ft versus 44.8ft for the Halberg Rassy, the average difference in passage time was 2 days 11hours, a result that is consistent with other data regarding average passage times on the Atlantic between performance cruisers and medium displacement cruisers of about the same length.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Polux, you are not wise to throw around the word "ignorance". Really. Have you ever sailed in Scandinavian waters? Not once -- did I guess right? Have you even ever been in Scandinavia altogether?..I've never seen an X Yacht in the Baltic -- not a single one
Yes, I have sailed on the Baltic even if not extensively but I do have seen some X yachts on the marina. I don't remember if I saw any sailing and yes, I have traveled on Scandinavia and have looked at several marinas.

I agree that you that the Baltic is not a reference in what regards Ocean sailing, the ARC is a much better one.
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Old 11-04-2016, 07:13   #342
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

The ARC results have always left me wondering as often there is no rhyme or reason to some of the results. I looked back a few years ago and there were almost as many old Moody's as Beneteau 's even though the British boats haven't been built in almost 20 years and Beneteau is the largest builder of sailboats. Many of the ARC boats stay in the Caribbean and are not sailed back the next season or go to other parts of the world. Sailing times are all over the map. We left the Canaries the same time as the ARC and took 18+ days to cross and later I find all sorts of so called faster boats that took longer. I think you can learn something about performance while tracking the racing division but not so much tracking the cruising division. During our crossing we kept in touch with a Cat that we were sharing the ocean with and while they were several feet longer than us their daily runs were only a few miles better and I know for a fact it is capable of doing much better so I think that many of the skippers sailed their boats very conservative, deep reefing them at night and underpowered during the day, what is there to learn from that? I think we cherry pick information that confirms our biases and spout that info out and support it with ARC results that in my opinion don't mean very much.
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Old 11-04-2016, 07:40   #343
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

The absurdity of this post is typical of Internet forums. Listen folks buy the boat you like. ..your money your decision. I sail a Beneteau in Newfoundland. Yup it can get rough out here in the northeast coast. Next stop Ireland. The looks we got from the old crowd when they heard of our buying intentions was very telling of a bias toward newer boats. We've got a few years and some nasty weather under the keel since with more than 5 metre seas and gust to 50 knots and I still like my purchase because I haven't seen better that I can afford. Sure there are better that would scream about how much I paid and how I'm somewhat scared of sailing in lesser but I can't afford them. Given the decision of long overhangs and short waterline that gives me the wallowing of a pig downwind vs newer design I went with newer and when I relax in the cockpit at Anchor or at the dock with all the room I have I'm glad I went the way I did. Others have different priorities and that's fine because I love looking at different boats and hearing different reasons for choosing. Does it change my mind? Nada! Go with what you like because to paraphrase my wife's father "a multi purpose anything doesn't seem to have any real purpose".
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Old 11-04-2016, 08:33   #344
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
If not ignorance, meaning lack of knowledge about a subject, I can only take it by deliberate misleading information meaning that you have the knowledge but deliberately chose to provide wrong information and I don't think it was the case, I believe that it is real bias and not want to see reality as it is but as you would like it to be, regarding your particular tastes for boats.

For instance regarding this:


That is an absolute nonsense lacking any logic. You consider not as the modern Scandinavian boats the ones that are made there now and sold there in bigger numbers but the ones that you imagine that should be the typical Scandinavian boats. Not the reality, but your imagination.

Najad bankrupted several times was bought by a brand of Scandinavian performance cruisers (Swedestar) that today use the name Najad. They make also the old Najad by command but they sell more Swedestar that Najad being the true Najad almost non existent in what regards production.

Regarding Finngulf a double misleading information, the Finngulf are no more, they bankrupted some years ago and Finngulf are the same type of boat as X-yachts, very similar on all points as the type of sailors that bought them.

Sweden yachts bankrupted at even more time and the type of boats they made were between the two lines of performance boats X-yacht makes the XP and XC.

Malo has not bankrupted yet, it makes boats like the old Najad, but has diminished considerably his production and the demand is very scarce. There was a time were Malo and Najad seem to be competition to Halberg Rassy. Not anymore, not by a long shoot.

Baltic and Swan did not bankrupted, even if they were close at a time, but changed altogether their production, that is a very small one, to the production of big semi custom performance yachts. The only yacht Baltic is building right now is a 175ft yacht.
http://www.balticyachts.fi/yachts/under_construction

Regarding Swan the smallest thing they had till recently was a 60fter and much bigger performance luxury yachts. Now they are proposing also a 50ft racing yacht and a "cheap" (for Swan) old designed 54ft. Very few boats were made and the boat looks like a 20 year old X yachts. The same type of boat but with an outdated design. I believe they had done that on purpose trying to cash on the Swan nostalgia but they are not having success with it.

By far the Scandinavian shipyard that is making by far a larger number of boats is Halberg- Rassy and the 2th one X-yachts. A simple visit to a major boat show will tell you that. Space on a major boat show is very expensive and only big brands, brands that produce a lot of boats have the means to have several boats on exposition. Halberg-Rassy and X-yachts are the only Swedish brands that have a very significant number of boats on major boat shows.

Curiously you forget to mention Arcona that is probably the Scandinavian brand that is selling more after those too, a brand that produces boats with similar characteristics of X-yachts.

So, to you Halberg Rassy, the ones that sell more in Scandinavia, is not making Scandinavian boats, because they are making boats that you don't like, beamy boats with all beam pulled back and they are making lighter and lighter boats, always faster and more seaworthy.

X-Yachts, the ones that after HR are producing more and selling more in Scandinavia are not Scandinavian boats, because you don't like them and you think they are mostly sold to Russians (70% of them) to sail on the med

So, let's see about the med and those 70% of Russian owners:

A good measure to see the use that is given to the boats is to check the boats that are used for Atlantic passages (they go and they come back) and regarding that the more than 200 boats a year on the ARC provide reliable information.

In what concerns those boats you will find that regarding the overall number of Beneteaus and Oysters, you will find a much bigger percentage of Oysters doing it than Beneteaus showing that in fact Oyster owners do perceptually a much bigger use of their boats on passage than Beneteau Owners.

Let's look at those numbers regarding the number of Halberg-Rassy that like Oyster (and for the same reason) have on the ARC perceptually a big number of boats participate on the event and comparing that number with the ones of the X-yachts doing it, on the last two editions.

Off course we have to take in consideration that Halberg Rassy is making boats for a much longer time than X yachts and also that X yachts was for many years a very small production shipyard and only on the last 7 or 8 years have become a Scandinavian major brand.

On the last two ARC editions participated 13 Halberg-Rassy, a very considerable number and considerably more than the ones of other single brand of medium displacement cruisers, with exception to maybe Oyster even if many Oyster are not medium displacement cruisers.

On the last two editions the number of X-yachts doing the ARC was the same as the number of Halberg Rassy, 13 yachts, even if 3 of them have made it on the racing division and not on the cruising division.

And regarding those Russian med owners and this opinion of yours:

None of the 13 boats was Russian but that 11 out of 13 were from North European, American or Australian owners and only two from the med (italians) : Norway 3, Netherlands 3, Great Britain 1, Australia 1, US 1, Germany 1, Austria 1.

So it seems you are talking about your sea culture and about the type of boats that you like and not about the ones that constitute the sea culture of those countries, that is diversified: Some like more for ocean sailing medium displacement boats, others like more performance cruisers to do that.

Since I was looking at numbers on the ARC I took the opportunity to have a deeper look at the difference of speed on the Atlantic passage, while cruising, between all those Halberg Rassy and X-Yacht considering the two editions of the ARC.

Since I am interested in loaded boats cruising I did not consider the 3 X-yacht that make it on the racing division and regarding maintaining comparable size I did not consider two smaller HR, a 31ft and a 35ft boat.

The average size of the X yacht was 45.2ft versus 44.8ft for the Halberg Rassy, the average difference in passage time was 2 days 11hours, a result that is consistent with other data regarding average passage times on the Atlantic between performance cruisers and medium displacement cruisers of about the same length.


Yes, I have sailed on the Baltic even if not extensively but I do have seen some X yachts on the marina. I don't remember if I saw any sailing and yes, I have traveled on Scandinavia and have looked at several marinas.

I agree that you that the Baltic is not a reference in what regards Ocean sailing, the ARC is a much better one.


OK, Polux I give up -- let's just agree that I'm ignorant of my home waters and the sailing culture here. What's a few thousand miles and a few years of living here, after all . . .

I not only sail here, I actually own a marina under development in Scandinavia. A large one, with more than a kilometer of sea walls. In struggling to try to make it commercially viable, I've so far spent more of my investors' money on market research, including especially boat preferences and trends in sailing culture in Scandinavia, than on pontoons.

I sure hope my investors don't find out that I wasted all that time and money -- instead of spending years and all that money, I could have just asked you and gotten the answer in seconds . For example, production numbers of X Yachts is all you need to know about what boats are used up here, no need to waste effort thinking about the fact that more than 90% of the production is exported out of the Nordic region . . . not to mention checking registration data . . . Brilliant -- I always knew those expensive consultants were overcomplicating it . . .


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Old 11-04-2016, 08:52   #345
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
The ARC results have always left me wondering as often there is no rhyme or reason to some of the results. I looked back a few years ago and there were almost as many old Moody's as Beneteau 's even though the British boats haven't been built in almost 20 years and Beneteau is the largest builder of sailboats. Many of the ARC boats stay in the Caribbean and are not sailed back the next season or go to other parts of the world. Sailing times are all over the map. We left the Canaries the same time as the ARC and took 18+ days to cross and later I find all sorts of so called faster boats that took longer. I think you can learn something about performance while tracking the racing division but not so much tracking the cruising division. During our crossing we kept in touch with a Cat that we were sharing the ocean with and while they were several feet longer than us their daily runs were only a few miles better and I know for a fact it is capable of doing much better so I think that many of the skippers sailed their boats very conservative, deep reefing them at night and underpowered during the day, what is there to learn from that? I think we cherry pick information that confirms our biases and spout that info out and support it with ARC results that in my opinion don't mean very much.
Robert,

As you are such a fine guy and refrain from throwing your anchor chain mud at people anchored in respective distance (which cannot be said of everyone on this thread) I will also try to be a fine person and, should I find my older xls files with Transpac and ARC data, I will share the findings with you, over a PM.

You are right about it not being likely to draw valid findings from our one off experiences, even when we relate them to a broader sailing backdrop of many boats sailing events like ARC et all. But much as or single experiences tell us nothing, when you draw conclusions from many data points (many experiences) about classes of objects, you come to quite clear, even though at times surprising, findings. At a point like this we may either shut our eyes and keep on repeating we are right and the data is wrong, or else face the figures and admit some girls are bigger than others.

It is not a hard promise though, as I did that work on my ex computer and I may have as well lost the sheets by now. Unfortunately, it is not a 5 minute job to repeat the research as ARC (used to) publish that data in pdf files which were not readily convertible to xls sheets. That is to say, they could be, if the person creating the pdfs knew what data exchange is and why it is a nice thing to write so that others could read. ;-)

Bueno. From the top of my head I can tell you count on 0.9 to 1 sqrt of the lwl in average ARC conditions. I am talking about speed made good, not speed made ahead. Disregard the outliers, UNLESS you are sailing one. VOR 70 is an outlier and that boat that motored for 800 hours is another.

So. What can I say. Making xls sheets is not a good reason to stay mono. I hope someone will find one today.

b.
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