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Old 09-04-2016, 15:36   #286
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
If you will bring your boat up to Cowes on 1 October next autumn, I'll race you from there to the Fastnet Rock and back (or to Plymouth if you want to imitate the Fastnet Race route). Your boat has a higher rating than mine. My boat is very much like the Discovery, modest SA/D (16.5), fully equipped with heavy duty generator (1000cc three cylinder), washer/dryer, etc., etc.

[snip]

Here would be the rules:

Crew of only 2 on each boat, no pros
White sails only
No limitation on poles
Motoring penalty as per RORC
Abort or delay with any forecast per either Met Office or Passageweather.com of F9 or more, but not otherwise.
To make this mind game more interesting, toss my Beneteau 40.7 into the mix. No, I'm not going to bring it from San Diego to Cowes. But consider two laps of your course under two scenarios for the 3 boats:

- Lap 1: As you specified above. 2 per boat, dacron sails, normal sail inventory, normal cruising gear.

- Lap 2: Balls out. Lighten the boat up as much as you want within IRC rules, full racing sail inventory, racing crew (could include a pro), and an optimal offshore crew size, e.g. on my boat it would be 6-8. Do it within the rules of the Fastnet to set a minimum equipment load.

What would I bet? Not knowing Polux's boat, I think you win lap 1. Depending on weather I may be 2nd or 3rd. The 40.7 is a tremendous upwind sailor but dishes out the punishment. That said, if we had 7-12 knots of wind the entire way (obviously not normal) it'd be a two horse race between Polux and I. I've won upwind, light air offshore races (yeah, welcome to San Diego) double handed against mostly fully crewed boats. I think I win lap 2 hands down. Get 7 on the rail upwind and the full crew rocking the kites downwind I'd be deadly. You may be last, although I have seen a Moody 54 sailing here a lot and it's no slouch. But make that race light air with a lot of motoring and you may win just by motoring. My 34 gallons of fuel doesn't get me very far.

The point is that how you equip the boat and sail the boat matter probably as much as the design. Lighter and cleaner shaped boats will of course be faster in most conditions, as will longer boats. But as you say, endurance and crew abuse really matter very significantly on longer passages with short handed crews. Having done quite a few double handed offshore races with my boat I can readily attest to how whipped we were after just 2 days.

I've observed the ARC and lap 2 is not as crazy you think. Not many people leave their generators at the dock, but a lot of the "cruising" class boats do get laminate sails and carry a pretty good size crew. Just look at the numbers someone posted: "200 boats and 1200 crew." My higher math says that's 6 per boat average. I personally know a number of people who've done it over the years in the cruising class with a cruising boat, and they've all taken the race aspect reasonably seriously. Anecdotal, but I think fairly common. None of them crossed as a couple; They all picked up several crew for the ARC. Obviously some do, but it would interesting to see how many.

I posted the PPJ because I think it's an interesting contrast. It's very well attended - 175 boats this year - but no organized start or finish, different departure points and dates, etc. so it's not a mass event like the ARC and no one treats it as a race. The PPJ web page lists the entries. Only a limited number of boats report results which is a bummer. But the way those boats sail is pretty different from e.g. the ARC. Most boats are crewed by a couple, maybe with 1 or 2 others, but in lots of cases it's just two people. Facilities are scarce across much of the Pacific, and the distances vastly higher so the boats tend to be loaded down with lots of spares and supplies, intending to be mostly self sufficient for 3-6 months or more (it can be 9 months to New Zealand if you need serious parts). Durability of everything is probably the most important thing. Just the sheer amount of engine and generator spares, fuel, and oil weigh a huge amount, as does food. The crossings are typically a reach/run mixture, often with boisterous conditions and squalls (although some years not) similar to the ARC. My guess is that the PPJ boats are being sailed in more of a long range cruiser configuration than the ARC boats in general (including crew), although it's really hard to judge that or outcomes given the limited PPJ results. But my guess is that PPJ results would better represent the "rest of the way around" sorts of results.
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Old 09-04-2016, 18:33   #287
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Originally Posted by DumnMad View Post
Ha Polux, I'm backing Dockhead to win this race. You'd have to up the wind speed limit to F10 if it was Southern Oceans. Keep your light-weight boats in the tropics and away from big swell.
It seems you did not notice but this has nothing to so with the boat one prefers or even boat seaworthiness, it has only with Dockhead opinion that sailboats of similar size, being them fast or slower, heavy cruisers, medium heavy cruisers and performance cruisers, have a similar speed on the trade winds when they are not raced by a racing crew but sailed by a cruiser's crew.
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Old 09-04-2016, 18:47   #288
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
It seems you did not notice but this has nothing to so with the boat one prefers or even boat seaworthiness, it has only with Dockhead opinion that sailboats of similar size, being them fast or slower, heavy cruisers, medium heavy cruisers and performance cruisers, have a similar speed on the trade winds when they are not raced by a racing crew but sailed by a cruiser's crew.
No. Its to do with reasons to stay "Monohull" as per title.

Unless of course your attempted hi-jack has won a majority vote.
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Old 09-04-2016, 18:50   #289
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Yes -- I agree that the fine entry and narrow beam are what you need -- but low latitude performance boats typically have more beam and flatter bottoms for more form stability, and this is not good up here where pounding is a real concern.
...
A low latitude boat performance boat that is a new one.

That one about beamy boats is also a good one too. Obviously you don't know the boats I posted because if you knew you would know that they go from the very narrow hull of the Atlantic 51 (the one I said it was the best upwind in nasty weather) to the narrow hull of the Luffe to the very moderate beam of the X55 and Comet 62RS. None of them is a beamy boat by modern standards.

And regarding that story about low latitude performance boats 3 out of 4 boats I have posted are designed for high latitude sailors by high latitude NA and built in high latitude shipyards, the southern of them in Denmark
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Old 09-04-2016, 18:57   #290
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Originally Posted by DumnMad View Post
No. Its to do with reasons to stay "Monohull" as per title.

Unless of course your attempted hi-jack has won a majority vote.
I was talking about the particular post you had quoted from Dockhead, the one that you were referring on the statement you have made. All that had to do with LWL and boat speed, not with any other subject.
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Old 09-04-2016, 23:00   #291
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
A low latitude boat performance boat that is a new one.

That one about beamy boats is also a good one too. Obviously you don't know the boats I posted because if you knew you would know that they go from the very narrow hull of the Atlantic 51 (the one I said it was the best upwind in nasty weather) to the narrow hull of the Luffe to the very moderate beam of the X55 and Comet 62RS. None of them is a beamy boat by modern standards.

And regarding that story about low latitude performance boats 3 out of 4 boats I have posted are designed for high latitude sailors by high latitude NA and built in high latitude shipyards, the southern of them in Denmark
Atlantic 51 very narrow? with beam 4.58m and x55 moderate with allmost the same L/B ratio. Are you joking or don't you checkup anything you throw in here
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Old 10-04-2016, 04:29   #292
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Atlantic 51 very narrow? with beam 4.58m and x55 moderate with allmost the same L/B ratio. Are you joking or don't you checkup anything you throw in here
Guess who is the joker?

The Wasa Atlatic 51 is a very narrow performance cruiser, the beam is not 4.58m but 3.30m.
WASA ATLANTIC 51 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

I posted a video, here it is again. Does it seem a beamy boat to you? If so there is something wrong with your eyes

You should check information before posting here wrong information. I stated clearly I was talking about the Wasa Atlatic 51:

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Old 10-04-2016, 05:02   #293
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Originally Posted by DumnMad View Post
No. Its to do with reasons to stay "Monohull" as per title.
Unless of course your attempted hi-jack has won a majority vote.
Now that I looked again at your post I really understood what you mean. It was so incredible that I had some difficulty grasping it.

So you think this thread was a kind of contest between Monohulls and Multihulls and the Monohulls have won it??????

Particularly heavy monohulls?

There are too many guys around that think that the boat they prefer is the best cruising boat foe ALL and that if others don't think the same way they are WRONG.

This thread was just about personal preferences and the reason one has them, not some stupid contest about personal preferences.

If something can be taken in what regard majority in personal preferences regarding the new market and its tendencies (that is the less distorted one) that in what monohulls and multihulls the tendency is very similar, privileging the cruising/living part part of a sailing cruising boat regarding the sailing part.

Meaning that most boats privilege interior space to sail ability and come up with more and more simplified rigging allowing less and less control over sail shape but increasing the simplicity of sailing regarding a vast majority that uses sailing as an occasional means of propulsion while cruising.

On cats that is leading to an increase of cat motor boats that are very similar boats without a mast. Not so much on sailing boats (without a mast) even if I had seen some (home made) but that's because motoring a cat is just a better option.

But majority in what regards personal preferences means absolutely nothing.

If a survey was made regarding what type of boats the ones that like sailing and have practiced sailing as a sport have I am sure the majority would not chose the same type of boat that privileges cruising/living over sailing, but a more balanced compromise.

They are just a much smaller group than the ones that charter occasionally boats during their live and when retirement comes chose to enjoy more time on the warm south cruising on a sailing boat.

And with this I do not mean that one type of cruising boat, any type of boat, is better than another. If they were not the best for a considerable number of people they would not be in production.
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Old 10-04-2016, 05:03   #294
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Guess who is the joker?

The Wasa Atlatic 51 is a very narrow performance cruiser, the beam is not 4.58m but 3.30m.
WASA ATLANTIC 51 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

I posted a video, here it is again. Does it seem a beamy boat to you? If so there is something wrong with your eyes

You should check information before posting here wrong information. I stated clearly I was talking about the Wasa Atlatic 51:

That's a really beautiful boat -- looks like Polux finally gets what kind of hull forms we like up here. The Swedes and the Finns know how to build them

The Wasa is a bit old fashioned even for me -- the modest draft keel lacks a bulb (very important). But the general approach is good, like another boat which reflects these values --

Dashew's Sundeer.

This is a boat which uses, strategically, long LWL (65') and a very narrow, easily driven hull with light ends to achieve very, very high passage times in all kinds of conditions, despite having a very modest draft and very modest rig.

So a boat which is not "powerful" with huge sail area and huge stability, but which requires much less power to get up to speed, in this case to 10 knots (its hull speed minus one) and stay there for days on end and in all kinds of conditions, without stress or effort. These boats regularly do whole ocean crossings at averages over 200 miles a day, with 250 mile days common. This is really hard to achieve on a short handed pleasure yacht; "performance boats" do not typically manage it unless they are ultra hot (e.g. Pogo) and intensely sailed, but the Sundeer does it effortlessly.

That Wasa will also be capable of very good short handed passage times, but sure could use a lead bulb on the keel.


By the way, and a bit of even further thread drift, but it occurs to me that we don't know much about L/B, compared to what we know about SA/D and D/L ratios. Is there a formula which tells us something about the difference in power required to drive the hull, with different L/B ratios? I'm guessing that there is more at play than wetted surface. What I mean is -- a narrow hull is a way to reduce wetted surface for a given waterline length.

But at some point, a narrow hull has a higher practical hull speed -- a la catamarans. When does that effect start to come into play?
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Old 10-04-2016, 05:03   #295
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Originally Posted by DumnMad View Post
No. Its to do with reasons to stay "Monohull" as per title.
Unless of course your attempted hi-jack has won a majority vote.
Now that I looked again at your post I really understood what you mean. It was so incredible that I had some difficulty grasping it.

So you think this thread was a kind of contest between Monohulls and Multihulls and the Monohulls have won it??????

Particularly heavy monohulls?

There are too many guys around that think that the boat they prefer is the best cruising boat foe ALL and that if others don't think the same way they are WRONG.

This thread is just about personal preferences and the reason one has them, not some stupid contest about personal preferences.

If something can be taken in what regard majority in personal preferences regarding the new market and its tendencies (that is the less distorted one) that in what monohulls and multihulls the tendency is very similar, privileging the cruising/living part part of a sailing cruising boat regarding the sailing part.

Meaning that most boats privilege interior space to sail ability and come up with more and more simplified rigging allowing less and less control over sail shape but increasing the simplicity of sailing regarding a vast majority that uses sailing as an occasional means of propulsion while cruising.

On cats that is leading to an increase of cat motor boats that are very similar boats without a mast. Not so much on sailing boats (without a mast) even if I had seen some (home made) but that's because motoring a cat is just a better option.

But majority in what regards personal preferences means absolutely nothing.

If a survey was made regarding what type of boats the ones that like sailing and have practiced sailing as a sport have I am sure the majority would not chose the same type of boat that privileges cruising/living over sailing, but a more balanced compromise.

They are just a much smaller group than the ones that charter occasionally boats during their live and when retirement comes chose to enjoy more time on the warm south cruising on a sailing boat.

And with this I do not mean that one type of cruising boat, any type of boat, is better than another. If they were not the best for a considerable number of people they would not be in production.
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Old 10-04-2016, 06:14   #296
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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But my guess is that PPJ results would better represent the "rest of the way around" sorts of results.
Thanks for this post.

Yes, the ARC is clearly a race -- starting and finishing at the same place and time, recording times, recording and penalizing engine use, dividing boats into "classes" and publishing comparison start-to-finish times -- this is not cruising, this is racing.

How ARC classifies boats and advertises itself is irrelevant. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck....
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Old 10-04-2016, 06:19   #297
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
And again you are saying that the knowledge I have regarding the difference of speed on passage between medium weight sailboats and light weight performance boats has to do with magazine knowledge and not real experience



For the 10th time I tell you that has nothing to do with magazine articles but with treating statistically real information of many hundred of sailboats regarding real time on transatlantic passages, comparing the times of many conformance light performance boats, with the performance of medium weight cruisers and heavy cruisers.

Information taken from several hundred of cases with statistic relevance on the world of passage making.
He may not say it, but I'll say it. Comparing times of boats in a race and in race trim is not evidence of how boats will perform on extended cruising passages in cruising trim.
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Old 10-04-2016, 06:46   #298
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Thanks for this post.

Yes, the ARC is clearly a race -- starting and finishing at the same place and time, recording times, recording and penalizing engine use, dividing boats into "classes" and publishing comparison start-to-finish times -- this is not cruising, this is racing.

How ARC classifies boats and advertises itself is irrelevant. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck....
Sailboat races, real ones, do not use engines
therfore the ARC is not a real race.
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Old 10-04-2016, 06:54   #299
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

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Thanks for this post.

Yes, the ARC is clearly a race -- ...
How ARC classifies boats and advertises itself is irrelevant. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck....
I can only laugh at that as most of the thousand cruisers that do that passage on the ARC will be laughing at that. You may say that only for lack of knowledge but you don't know what you are talking about.

Next year we will have to members of this forum making the ARC. Why don't you ask them if they are going to "race" the ARC?

Yes, the ARC has a small racing division and those are racing. Last year they were 10 boats out of more than 200 and it was not from the racing division that I did take results but from the cruising division , and maybe you had not notice the difference but it is a easy one:

On the racing division they are racing and on the cruising division they are cruising.
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Old 10-04-2016, 07:24   #300
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Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

No.

It is not a race. Do not berate the word only because so many think that the ARC is the top of the world. Stop reading the Yachting World as if it were a Bowditch. Atlantic RALLY for CRUISERS. Look up their website read the name in full for yourself. Rally it is.

There is a minority Race division where the most racy boats and crews race (on the most friendly terms though). There is no hard pushing there either as you do not want to break a charter boat just before the season. If in doubt, compare a recent VOR entry with what VOR boats achieve in the racing mod.

Races are e.g. OSTAR, Transat, Transquadra, MiniTransat, Transpac, Sydney-Hobart, NZ Harald Coastal, Fastnet Rolex, Vendee Globe, VOR, etc.

This non-racing characteristics of the ARC is however a major contributor to usability of ARC data for making calculated judgements on how fast the cruising boats are. With hundreds of boats every year and back results available for recent editions, this is the best source of relevant data I know of.

At least two cruisers on this forum ran the data thru spreadsheets and drew statistically valid conclusions. Anybody else can do the same and then we can compare our findings.

Having plenty of data points available for choosing the right monohull may be seen as a half hearted argument towards staying mono (read into behavioral economy books for explanation).

b.
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