Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 05-04-2016, 04:54   #136
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: [S]Hamble (Spring and Fall)[/S], Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 16,746
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribbit View Post
Fair points DH (which I have extracted).

My point is that the emphasised part I quoted, is what applies to most cat owners?

For those that actually sail rather than motor all the time, it's a completely different matter?
Yes, I don't think I was really disagreeing with you, just clarifying.

Even if you never sail, however, I would take a cat over a trawler -- if you're going to be in ocean conditions. For the reasons stated. Let it be a power cat maybe, but a cat.


For the kind of cruising I used to do in Florida with my Dad, on the other hand, -- a trawler would have been better than the sailboat we used, because there were so often dead calms or light contrary winds, that we could go for a week or more without ever unfurling the sails. And we lived in the cramped and dark conditions of a mono built for the ocean. A trawler would have been much nicer, especially in the ICW. It would have been nice to have the room, and to be sitting above deck with a view.
__________________

__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 04:54   #137
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 4,910
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle View Post
I know you are the expert on anything European ... at least in your own opinion but this is very common.

Did you read the example I posted?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle
- Big steel, 50' x 16,5' steel powerboat, charged for 50' length = € 3.740
- Prout Snowgoose, 37' x 15', charged 1,5 times 37' length = € 3.570
(Length price for 37' is € 2.380)



So a 37' cat pays nearly as much as a 50' mono - which is actually wider then the cat. But, having only one hull, he gets charged length fee only. As if it matters how many hulls a boat has ...

That is very common - and most marinas will go as far as simply charging cats double, not "just" 1,5 times length price.

The cat in that example has left; they are tired of the 1,5 / 2 times length fees and couldn't find a marina not charging extra simply for being a cat, regardless of the width and the fact that there's usually a more narrow boat that'll fit in the slip with them (which is what they do here as well, so the slip gets them 2,5 times the normal income, which is a nice bonus ... ).
I don't understand why you are saying that is common a 35ft cat paying the same as a 80ft monohull. Your example don't support what you say but what I have said.

I don't know if you noticed but the double of 35ft is 70ft, not 80ft.

Regarding motorboats I don't understand what that has to do. They are normally beamier than sailing-boats for a given length. We are talking about sailing boats not motor-boats.
__________________

Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 04:57   #138
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Sydney
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 813
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Sound of the water over a howling gale? I don't think so.

I think there must be a way to feel it, but it's a mystery to us mono guys.

I've done some cat sailing, and I had no clue whatsoever whether I was getting overpowered or not. I had to judge by the wind instrument and log, and I was very conservative, because I was afraid.

I think this is exactly what Polux was talking about, when he said that actual passage speeds of cats on long ocean passages like the ARC tends to be the same as monos, even performance cats. His theory is that cats on long passages must be sailed more conservatively, because of this issue. I think he may be on to something.
you can feel overpowering by sound of rigging - ropes start making noises. Pretty good gauge.

I have not been in serious weather yet, but in such conditions would be defensive and have only jib. Jib you can judge by movement & vibration.

I think it is quite doable even at night.

Cats can go aggressive as well, if they have reefing setup to reef downwind. Price is rigging ages faster, i guess.

However, from what I know typical cat sailor will fell in love with the boat and will not push it until is sure to be able to handle exceptions (if ever).
__________________
arsenelupiga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 05:05   #139
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: [S]Hamble (Spring and Fall)[/S], Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 16,746
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
It seems to me that you should check your maths. 80ft is not the double of 35ft and therefore I continue not to know of any place that charges for a 35ft cat the same as for a 80ft mono hull.

Besides that I only said that on the med, where most sailboats are, the more common measurement regarding price is beamXlength and that in fact gives about the double regarding boats with similar length, but not the same price regarding boats with double length, being the cat the smaller.

No inconvenience caused.
In my experience, cats are charged either by beam x length (universal in the Med in my experience), or at 1.5x the mono rate.

It seems generally fair to me. By the way, beam x length makes the charges go up out of proportion to length for monos -- unpleasant for people with boats like mine, even if it is basically fair if you think about it.

In the Baltic, berthing is usually charged either at a flat rate regardless of size (VERY pleasant for boats like mine!), or according to bands of size. Less often by length x a per meter rate. Cats 1.5x if any difference is charged. Berthing is cheap in the Baltic, pleasant for everyone.


I've never seen cats charged 2x and I suppose that must be rare. Definitely unfair in cases where two whole berths are not taken up, but accommodating cats may be a real PITA in marinas not designed to take them, so probably some marina owners don't mind dampening demand that way.

In Poole a couple of weeks ago, I was berthed next to a giant Lagoon, 50-odd or 60-odd feet, and it did take up two entire berths between the fairly narrowly spaced fingers. In this particular case, it would have been quite reasonable to take 2x.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 05:21   #140
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 4,910
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
In my experience, cats are charged either by beam x length (universal in the Med in my experience), or at 1.5x the mono rate.

It seems generally fair to me. By the way, beam x length makes the charges go up out of proportion to length for monos -- unpleasant for people with boats like mine, even if it is basically fair if you think about it.
....
I have been in some places were the cats payed 2 times more (but never in one that they paid more than that) even if today the more common in marinas seems to be lengthxbeam.

Regarding charges being out of proportion with length I guess you are right regarding city port charges were in many cases length is irrelevant (moored med type) but I don't know if there the charges are lenghtxbeam, contrary to the marinas they don't make them public.

Some information regarding that by cat owners sailing on the med?
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 05:30   #141
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 4,910
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
.....
We were close to go for mono and found this new 38 ft benetau model without wall in front room (cool) and price was just 30% less than our cat.

ridiculously priced, that was last time ever I looked at mono.
What is the cat that costs only 30% more than an Oceanis 38? I don't know of any, at least with the same length and a smaller one will be less seaworthy.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 05:37   #142
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Sydney
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 813
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
What is the cat that costs only 30% more than an Oceanis 38? I don't know of any, at least with the same length and a smaller one will be less seaworthy.
note that this is in Australia where prices are skewed till infinity, as we live on island.

cat was sailed from france and purchased secondhand in as new condition, ended up being less than 30% dearer than new Bene 38.

I was gearing up to buy Lagoon 45, but this deal came along.

Even more funny pricing Elan 34 vision, same as Bene 38.

Maybe relations in your part o worls are different and monos make more sense.
__________________
arsenelupiga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 05:43   #143
Moderator
 
Lizzy Belle's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Netherlands
Boat: Ohlson 29
Posts: 1,523
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
We are talking about sailing boats not motor-boats.
Actually, we were talking marina fees.
As far as I know, there are no marinas that use one price list for powerboats and another for sailboats (but feel free to provide links to marinas that do; just cos I've never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen).

They do, however, charge catamarans extra - either power or sailing cats.

So power or sail simply isn't relevant, as the exact same thing would apply if both were sailing boats, and the example shows exactly what cat owners have to look forward to in many marinas.
__________________
"Il faut être toujours ivre." - Charles Baudelaire
Dutch ♀ Liveaboard, sharing an Ohlson 29 with a feline.
Lizzy Belle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 06:08   #144
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 4,910
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
note that this is in Australia where prices are skewed till infinity, as we live on island.

cat was sailed from france and purchased secondhand in as new condition, ended up being less than 30% dearer than new Bene 38.

I was gearing up to buy Lagoon 45, but this deal came along.

Even more funny pricing Elan 34 vision, same as Bene 38.

Maybe relations in your part o worls are different and monos make more sense.
It makes no sense to compare prices of new boats with prices of used boats. It makes sense to talk about the price of boats at the factory. All the rest are distortions.

Factory price is a dealer's price but you have to pick up the boat at the factory, no transport included, price for standard boats, no extras and no tax included.

The Oceanis 38 costs on those conditions 115 740 euros, a Lagoon 380 costs 203 673 euros, both 2016 prices.
http://www.kiriacoulis.com/sales/Lag...management.pdf
Vente BENETEAU OCEANIS 38 2016 neuf - Lorient - Morbihan - France - Voiliers 10 - 12 m

That means the Lagoon 380 is 76% more expensive than the Oceanis 38.



The factory price of a Standard Lagoon without extras
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 06:16   #145
Registered User
 
Sandero's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Southern Westchester/Northport LI
Boat: Shiva - Contest 36s
Posts: 4,016
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

There are obviously many decisions which will inform a person's choice of boat... among them are:
intended type of use... live aboard, passage maker, coastal week ender... racer or any combination of the above which results in compromises
cost of maintenance
cost of mooring, or docking
cost of acquisition
cost of fuel
resale value
number of people the boat needs to accommodate
aesthetic preferences
market availability
age, marine skills and health of the owner

and so on

There is no one reason that will inform a decision... though some will dominate the process.

Find what works for you which is all that really matters.
__________________
Sandero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 06:25   #146
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,874
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Sound of the water over a howling gale? I don't think so.
In a howling gale, you are probably running at hull speed or better. Tweaking the sails to get that extra 0.1kts, isn't usually an issue and you likely have a reef or two in already.

I do agree with the sound. When our 34' cat gets in a grove and hits around 8kts, there is this continuous whooshing sound from the wake.
__________________
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 06:35   #147
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,874
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

I have to disagree with the idea of cat owners should get a trawler. I see it as the opposite. A lot of trawler owners would benefit from getting a sail cat. With a pair of say 40hp engines rather than a single 120hp engine, the cat will likely match cruise speed and possibly top end due to more efficient narrow hulls (as with the rest of this discussion there is a lot of complications in comparing directly but close enough as to be true in concept).


It's the very rare engine that wears out. Most die from lack of use and lack of maintenance, so I wouldn't be worried about having to replace them.


As far as living space, not greatly different overall. Just laid out a bit different.


The only place I would give a trawler an edge is if you wanted to carry cargo or have massive range by throwing 1000gal tanks at the issue. Of course if you have a sail cat, the sails address the range issue.
__________________
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 06:59   #148
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 4,910
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
People we know were rolled 360' in Bass Strait. They lost their mast, the use of their engine (their batteries broke loose, which meant their engine wouldn't start) and their steering was severely damaged. The husband suffered a fractured skull, severe concussion and broken arm, the wife a broken wrist and torn shoulder ligaments.
Yes, but they didn't stay upside down, staid afloat with a boat offering good protection to the elements.

Many times on a roll the mast breaks but there are cases where the boat sustain no appreciable damage or can easily be jury rigged and is able to continue sailing.

I remember a story about a guy that was paying rounds of beer to everybody at Peter's in Azores and when questioned about is generosity said that he had been rolled many times before making to Azores or the case of that guy that circumnavigated three times without stop (rolled on one of them) or the case of that little 22ft mini racer that circumnavigated non stop that rolled broke partially the mast and made half a circumnavigation with a jury rig.

I guess we agree that is better not to be rolled by if rolled is better to have the possibility to come to its feet again and as I said most of the time what happens are capsizes and a monohull even if it goes over 90º can still come back without inversion on most of the cases. That excludes very strong gusts as a main cause of inversion, contrary to what happens with a cat.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 08:58   #149
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 4,910
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribbit View Post
My perspective is, if it floats, I like it, if it is designed to sink, I like it too.
...
You seem to have strange tastes in boats. The only boats that are designed to sink are submarines, but they are not sailboats

Maybe you like submarines but they seem to be out of the subject of this thread. Regarding cats and mono-hulls from both types some are unsinkable, most not.

Regarding cats there are a bigger percentage that are unsinkable (if compared with monohulls) and they are pretty much all true performance catamarans but they are a minority compared with condo cats that are the vast majority and regarding those several are known to have sunk.

A boat can not be unsinkable and remain afloat for a great amount of time, it only needs to be capsized and have air trapped under the hull, having the seacoks closed.

But I guess most are not greatly worried about if their boat will be unsinkable or not, being the odds of that to be relevant incredibly small.

There was a brand (Etap) that made only unsinkable boats and if that was really a major concern they would not gone bankrupt. The boats were not considerably more expensive than similar boats.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 09:19   #150
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 4,910
Re: Reasons to stay "Monohull"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
A Lagoon 400 has a LOA of 39'3" and a bean of 23'9" for a total square footage of 932.18 sq foot.

A Beneteau 57 has a LOA of 57' and a beam of 16.33 for a total square footage of 930.81 sq foot.

So what are your prices for a 40' cat versus a 57' monohull?

Sure the cat is more than the monohull, and it should be. But that doesn't mean relative to their size they are that much more.
I read that and seemed very odd to me because I know that a Lagoon 400 has not the interior volume of a Beneteau 57.

So I checked out and it turns out those areas are only relevant in what regards Marina fees on the cases lengthXbeam is used since you did not measure the real boat interior area but the lenghtXbeam.

Regarding a lenghtXbam area a monohull has considerably more useful area since not only the loss with curvature (shape) on two hulls is bigger than on a single bigger one but also the space lost on the bow and transom on the two cat hulls (due to the hulls to be much narrower) is much bigger than the one lost on a bigger monohull.

So even if a 40ft cat has more useful space than a similar sized monohull it has considerably less than a 57ft monohull.
__________________

Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
hull, monohull

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Removable Cutter Stay vs Solent Stay Orchidius Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 16 30-06-2014 03:36
St Augustine - To stay or Not to stay alsobrsp Atlantic & the Caribbean 1 17-01-2013 13:07
For Sale: Stay sail, Storm Sail, & Head Stay MoonlightSailor Classifieds Archive 1 18-12-2009 11:27
For Sale: Stay sail, storm sail, & head stay MoonlightSailor Classifieds Archive 0 31-10-2009 17:25
Removable Stay(sail) or not to stay... jcmcdowell Monohull Sailboats 8 27-08-2004 15:30


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:45.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.