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Old 20-10-2012, 10:49   #16
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Re: real-world FORESAIL comparisons

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Originally Posted by Dsanduril View Post
Not sure about SkipMac, but our "storm jib" gets hanked on the inner stay when the wind gets too strong for the staysail. You really don't want to be sailing then, but sometimes you don't have that choice.
Yep.
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Old 20-10-2012, 10:51   #17
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Re: real-world FORESAIL comparisons

Nothing wrong with a hank on foresail.... especially in your boat size. Alot less weight aloft for sure. For cruising, I kind of like about a 120% Jib with a somewhat high cut Clew you can see under. Also with about a 1.5-2 ft pendent on the tack. However in light airs, you might suffer a little.... but I motor in light airs! A nice sail bag that covers the sail with it stored on the headstay is real convenient. The ones I had opened on the top and in font of the stay with twist buttons , also with a leathered exit hole for the sheets to stay rigged and ready for use.
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Old 20-10-2012, 10:54   #18
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Re: real-world FORESAIL comparisons

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Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
Curiously, when would you run the storm jib? Once it gets past yankee territory I don't want anything to do with the outer forestay and just rock the staysail.
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Old 20-10-2012, 11:30   #19
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Re: real-world FORESAIL comparisons

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Originally Posted by SURV69 View Post
I fully understand the "miracle" aspect of furled sails, but have always been leery of downsizing a furled sail let alone the control of a partially furled sail. They seem to work best all-in or all-out. In-between is a compromise.

I'm not looking for the best of both worlds but I am looking for the best compromise between performance, reliability and replacement on a cruising budget.
You're talking about more compromises in sailing ability when you fly a working jib in 5 to 35 knots than you would if you were flying a 125-130% furling genoa.

In addition to the safety and convenience aspects, I forgot to mention storage. If you switch from hank on jibs to one furling jib, you get more room for cruising gear.
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Old 20-10-2012, 12:40   #20
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Re: Real-world Foresail Comparisons

A furling headsail with a built up luff using foam or line will reef quite nicely even past 20%. If I have to reef beyond 20%, not too concerned with shape as seas will make beating to weather a major problem and sail shape will work quite well on a close reach. Have a gail sail if things get really nasty and an Asym. for drifting. The biggest problem with a furling sail is it has to be made from heavy cloth to stand up in strong winds when furled. Doesn't make it a good light air sail though way way better than a 100% working jib and a big heavy mass to handle when you drop it. The 135% that Mack Sails built for me has done yeoman service. Bent it on 4 years ago and its been there ever since through 40k winds in SF Bay furled to less than 100% down to light air sailing here in Kona as well as a TransPac. The sail is like owning an automatic trans in a car, just pull on the furling line to get the right sail area for everything but drifting conditions.

To answer your first question, going with a working jib as your only headsail will work only if winds are constantly above 15k and/or you really don't care to sail and will be content to motor a bunch. Tried to deliver a new boat from LA to SF once with only working sails. Took four days to sail from Marina Del Rey to Santa Barbara when the engine died. Actually surfed backwards down the big Pacific Swells and suffered through a racing fleet sailing from Ventura to one of the Channel Islands easily sailing out and back while we wallowed going nowhere. Let me walk that back a bit, if you have one of the new high aspect ratio rigs designed to work with 'blade' jibs, then a 100% jib can work even in winds below 10k. Still not optimal for light air but enough drive to move the boat. For the rest of us, an overlapping jib is a necessity

Modern furlers are pretty much bullet proof. Issues in heavier air are usually not enough line on the drum to completely furl the sail and chafe on the reefing line. One of my dockmates sailed down to Palmyra for a little weekend jaunt. His furling line parted after the second day at sea negating the ability to furl the sail. The reefing line was chafing on the furler case because of a poorly placed lead block. They'd sailed the boat locally for several years that way and hadn't noticed the problem. 48 hours of continuous sailing caused the line to part, however. They had major issues getting the 135% jib down in the strong trades and the working jib was too small to sail later when the wind dropped. Ended up burning a bunch of fuel powering for about half the miles down. They didn't want to rehoist the 135% without being able to furl it because of their experience handing the sail earlier. Handling a 135% on a 42' boat was something they weren't willing to have to repeat. They didn't have spare line to replace the parted original furling line so weren't able reconfigure the furler. Fortunately, the strong trades held on the return trip and the working jib worked okay. Good for them as they were short on fuel after powering so much on the way down.

If I was serious about not using a headsail furler, would only do it with a double headsail rig. The jib/staysail combination gives more drive in light air than a smallish jib on a sloop so funxtions over a much wider wind range. Sailed many thousands of miles on our Westsail with only 4 sails, a light overlapping jib, Yankee, staysail and main. The light Genoa was more of a reacher but gave us some windward ability in light air and enough drive in drifting conditions to keep sailing, had one 15 mile day. since it was made of light material was easy to handle and bage. Dropped that sail going to weather and went with the Yankee in winds of about 10k or on a reach to 15k. The rest of the time it was Yankee and Staysail or just the staysail. We only made one sail change to go from drifting to hurricane. The Yankee was always hanked on either stowed in a bag or lashed to the deck.
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Old 20-10-2012, 12:48   #21
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Re: real-world FORESAIL comparisons

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Originally Posted by Dsanduril View Post
Not sure about SkipMac, but our "storm jib" gets hanked on the inner stay when the wind gets too strong for the staysail. You really don't want to be sailing then, but sometimes you don't have that choice.
Some cutters, like ours, have a boomed staysail with reef points. Big wind means nothing is on the outer forestay, hence why I was asking about why a storm jib would be there. In my world anything over say 25 knots = nothing on the outer stay.
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Old 20-10-2012, 12:50   #22
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Re: real-world FORESAIL comparisons

[QUOTE=SURV69;1063425]I fully understand the "miracle" aspect of furled sails,

I'm not looking for the best of both worlds but I am looking for the best compromise between performance, reliability and replacement on a cruising budget
Hank on is great on your size boat. I had a 30 with hank on. The great thing about it is ease of sail changes. A smallish heavy and medium jib throw in a drifter or a asymmetrical and you would be covered. Look at used sail sites it wouldn't cost much.
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Old 20-10-2012, 13:00   #23
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Re: real-world FORESAIL comparisons

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Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
You're talking about more compromises in sailing ability when you fly a working jib in 5 to 35 knots than you would if you were flying a 125-130% furling genoa.

In addition to the safety and convenience aspects, I forgot to mention storage. If you switch from hank on jibs to one furling jib, you get more room for cruising gear.
And you can just remove all your sailing gear entirely and save more space!

/sarcasm

The boat is a sailboat first and foremost and carrying sufficient gear for its primary purpose should take priority over extra bags of beef jerky and beach chairs.

The space of a drifter? My 50' luff model can fit in my backpack trash packed in a ball.
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Old 20-10-2012, 13:27   #24
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Re: Real-world Foresail Comparisons

Personally I would go for a #2 genoa with a couple of slab reefs to bring it down to the size of a generous working jib, (each reef progressively more high-cut in the foot, which has the fringe benefit that - if the sailmaker can follow instructions - the sheet will lead to the same point after reefing as before)

When it got too much for that, I'd put up a modest working jib.

If this has a pendant (a strop from the tack to the tack fitting) the #2 can stay hanked on below the working jib, with sail ties cow-hitched along the top lifeline on both sides.
The #2 can be fitted with a smart downhaul, perhaps along these lines

Jib Downhaul & Stowage ?

For a sailboat your size, I think this has significant advantages in comparison with a roller furler, and I wonder if there will be a bit of a resurgence of such solutions as the honeymoon with rollers wears off.
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Old 20-10-2012, 14:13   #25
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Re: Real-world Foresail Comparisons

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Originally Posted by SURV69 View Post
I know about the ease of use that a furled sail offers, but I also know about the problems and I'm sure that, used replacement , "furled" sails must be harder to find. . .
Not necessarily, we had a hank on sail converted to furling by a sail maker for $120. Since it is quite a bit smaller, probably 100% it did need the luff extending all the way up or the halyard will rap around the foil, but that isn't a problem.

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Old 20-10-2012, 14:47   #26
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Re: Real-world Foresail Comparisons

Another contribution from a cutter. We have a full battened main with two reefs, a club footed staysail with one reef that is hanked on, a 110 yankee on a roller furling and an asymetric cruising spinnaker in a sock. Originally, the 110 was a 130 but it was a pain to tack past the staysail stay. So when it went to the sail loft in the sky I replaced it with the high clew yankee. End of problem. I really like the cruising spinnaker because we often encounter light air in the Tarpon/Tampa area. I've seen it take the boat from an anemic 2 kt to 6 kt. Of course there have also been days so windless I couldn't even keep the chute full. Then it's time to anchor, go for a swim or have a cocktail.

One thing I noticed is that if I had too much headsail up for the wind conditions my pointing ability is severely limited.

Finally, and I am guilty here too, the original poster was talking about a sloop not a cutter so a lot of our comments don''t apply. My first boat was a Morgan 32, I had three hank on headsails. Roller furling would have been nice but for that size boat hankies weren't too much trouble. I had a storm jib (used only a few times), a 110 for those months such as in the fall when we could expect some decent wind, and a 130 for the summer months when wind was hard to find. I would have like a cruising chute but didn't have the money. The sail that was currently in season was kept hanked on in a sail bag suspended above the deck to keep it out of standing water. The others were kept in the quarter berth, otherwise known as the garage.

Rich
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Old 20-10-2012, 17:09   #27
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Re: Real-world Foresail Comparisons

You can have a jib flown along the mast in place of the main. It is better if the hanks are removable then as otherwise they will bang against the mast.

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