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Old 13-04-2016, 11:17   #31
vjm
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Re: Ran aground during sea trial..

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Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle View Post
If I were the seller of that boat, I personally wouldn't ... Never hurts to ask, but since it's not necessary and that particular boat shouldn't be hard to sell, I might just opt to not ground her on the next sea trail
I would not either. These are the buyer's concerns, so it is up to the buyer to pay for the process they need to allay them. If the seller had concerns, they would haul the boat. They don't, so it isn't money they would otherwise spend. It's a nice boat so it is not like they have to be particularly accommodating to sell it.
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Old 13-04-2016, 11:28   #32
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Re: Ran aground during sea trial..

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I would not either. These are the buyer's concerns, so it is up to the buyer to pay for the process they need to allay them. If the seller had concerns, they would haul the boat. They don't, so it isn't money they would otherwise spend. It's a nice boat so it is not like they have to be particularly accommodating to sell it.
Well, that could get contractual then. Buyer makes an offer subject to survey and sea trial. The boat passed the survey but has since potentially changed condition (through the unintentional grounding). As such, the survey is in effect partially void and could allow the buyer to walk away.

Who should pay for another survey then? Sure, the seller could turn around and say it's the buyer's responsibility. The buyer could equally turn around and argue he's kept up his end of the bargain for covering the cost of the original survey and that the seller should really pitch in a bit.

If it was me, I'd insist the seller at least offered to pay 50% of having the boat hauled again and checked. If the seller said no and wouldn't offer any form of escrow, I'd walk away. Otherwise you'll be stressing about it until you do haul out and check.

Just my 2p.

Nathan
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Old 13-04-2016, 11:33   #33
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Re: Ran aground during sea trial..

To OP:

How's this King Solomon-like solution? If after the haul out there is no observable damage and you end up buying the boat the you pay the haulout costs and surveyor's 2nd trip. And if you balk due to a real grounding damage only (not any other issues which you have not noticed prior) then it's the seller's expense as it was he who grounded the boat in the first place.
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Old 13-04-2016, 11:34   #34
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Re: Ran aground during sea trial..

Sure, boats run aground but this is your new boat. Do a short haul and inspect the bottom. It will be worth your peace of mind.
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Old 13-04-2016, 11:38   #35
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Re: Ran aground during sea trial..

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Good for you

You're putting something into your sailor's karma bank with this seamanlike thought

It's entirely fair to want to check this. If I were the seller and it happened to me like that, I would be completely understanding of this desire.

You don't need to be there if you trust the surveyor. Just have the boat yanked out of the water and held in slings for an hour. That would cost the seller 100 pounds if it were being done here.

You could also hold back part of the price as suggested by someone else.
^^^What he said, mostly. I'd want it hauled and checked out before going through with the sale. The cost to have it hauled and inspected while in the slings and relaunched an hour later will be very minimal and will give you the piece of mind you need. If the seller has any hesitation about doing this or if you just feel bad about asking him to, I"d just pay to have it done myself. It's just not much money for the piece of mind it will buy.

I realize it's an option frequently used but I would not want to have part of the purchase price held in escrow for something like this. The reason is that if there is damage that needs to be repaired, it can be pretty subjective regarding how to best go about it and costs can vary widely depending on how thorough the repair is. You and the seller may have a different opinion about the extent of the needed repair or if the damage you find might possibly have been caused by a subsequent grounding once the boat was yours. Plus, it's going to be hanging over both yours and the sellers head until that first haulout. In order to have a legally binding clause that "clearly" spells out just what would need to happen if damage is found after it's your boat it's going is going to take some time and possibly legal advice. For about what it would cost for 15 minutes worth of a lawyers billable time, you can have this whole thing resolved and forgotten about before the boat becomes yours. A quick haulout and inspection by your surveyor isn't too big an imposition on anyone and will give both you and the seller a much better feeling once the sale is complete.

Enjoy your new boat! If I was looking for a boat in that size range, a Contessa would be on my very short list of boats to consider.
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Old 13-04-2016, 11:54   #36
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Re: Ran aground during sea trial..

Do you know what ground was hit? Check the charts and see if the ground type is indicated, ie, mud, sand, rock, etc.

Later,
Dan
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Old 13-04-2016, 12:17   #37
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Re: Ran aground during sea trial..

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Well, that could get contractual then. Buyer makes an offer subject to survey and sea trial. The boat passed the survey but has since potentially changed condition (through the unintentional grounding). As such, the survey is in effect partially void and could allow the buyer to walk away.

Who should pay for another survey then? Sure, the seller could turn around and say it's the buyer's responsibility. The buyer could equally turn around and argue he's kept up his end of the bargain for covering the cost of the original survey and that the seller should really pitch in a bit.

If it was me, I'd insist the seller at least offered to pay 50% of having the boat hauled again and checked. If the seller said no and wouldn't offer any form of escrow, I'd walk away. Otherwise you'll be stressing about it until you do haul out and check.

Just my 2p.

Nathan
Yes, based on the contract, the buyer can walk away. Asking the seller to pay anything (and it is a really small amount of money in the scope of things) is not in the contract. The seller could agree, or tell you to forget it. But none of that is based on the contract. You would be renegotiating the terms of the contract based on changed conditions. If the buyer is willing to lose a sweet boat over that amount of money then so be it.

It helps to think about the issue extended out. What if overnight there are very high winds? Does the seller now have responsibility or duty that was never created contractually to go halfsies on a rigging inspection? No, right? If the buyer has concerns about areas that are not covered in the contract it is really their responsibility to pony up to get the information they need. If the seller chooses to be nice and pitch in some, that's great!
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Old 13-04-2016, 13:06   #38
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Re: Ran aground during sea trial..

Running aground at 3 kts on a sandy bottom ... How many of you actually haul out when that happens?
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Old 13-04-2016, 13:17   #39
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Re: Ran aground during sea trial..

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Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle View Post
Running aground at 3 kts on a sandy bottom ... How many of you actually haul out when that happens?

LizzyBelle, l agree. I wouldn't worry about a grounding on sand at such low speed. But I know my boat and trust it to take such small abuse. There is no right or wrong answer for the OP here just a choice on his part about his comfort in going ahead with this purchase, or not.


S/V B'Shert
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Old 13-04-2016, 13:18   #40
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Re: Ran aground during sea trial..

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Running aground at 3 kts on a sandy bottom ... How many of you actually haul out when that happens?
When Cheeky Refiki lost her keel mid Atlantic all thoughts were turned back to some so called soft groundings in her past.
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Old 13-04-2016, 13:22   #41
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Re: Ran aground during sea trial..

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When Cheeky Refiki lost her keel mid Atlantic all thoughts were turned back to some so called soft groundings in her past.
Not sure if they were soft -- even a bolted on keel can handle a soft (and not-so-soft) grounding, unless there already were issues.
I've always had boats with bolted on keels and wouldn't haul after a grounding like the OP described. Never lost a keel and I did manage to confirm the sandbanks were still where they were supposed to be

The only reason to haul her out again is peace of mind -- which can be worth it, if you're worried enough for some reason, but the owner probably has a little more faith in the boat, just like the surveyor.

So I ask again: would you haul out in a case like this (sandy bottom, 3 kts)? And if so, why?
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Old 13-04-2016, 13:36   #42
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Re: Ran aground during sea trial..

I would ask the owner to haul it or have diver take photos of it... it is a new, unknown condition issue that was not there before. I think the buyer has the right to ask to have it checked or to be able to back out of the purchase. Sure, if it is just sand or mud, no problem, but if it was a rock or lost hunk of steel, it could have caused a hole that may show a slow leak into the keel, I believe it is encapsulate lead (?) Contessas are good boats, but if it were me, I'd want it checked and I would not think it was up to me to pay for it..
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Old 13-04-2016, 13:41   #43
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Re: Ran aground during sea trial..

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Sure, if it is just sand or mud, no problem, but if it was a rock or lost hunk of steel,
This happened at the Ertveldplas. Unless someone just sank there quietlty, it was mud and sand.

If I remember correctly, we managed to run a powerboat aground there a couple of years ago when looking for the marina entrance ... Not me driving that time tho
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Old 13-04-2016, 13:45   #44
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Re: Ran aground during sea trial..

You guys sound like Americans (of which I am one). Everything need not be made a legal or contract issue.

The odds of damage on an encapsulated keel boat - especially THIS encapsulated keel boat - are astonishingly small. I can pretty much guarantee there's a bigger problem somewhere that the surveyor missed. Welcome to boat owning.

Besides the very real matter of Karma, you'd like the current owner to be a friend as long as you own the boat. Trust me. No one knows this boat better and he will almost certainly be able to help you as a new owner and down the road. Last year an owner I sold a boat to six years ago asked me what paint brand and color number I used on the hull. I was glad to look it up.
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Old 13-04-2016, 13:51   #45
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Re: Ran aground during sea trial..

There isn't even a broker involved, this is a sale directly from the owner.

The OP can walk away at any time, but that would be a waste of time and money, a very good survey and a damn shame, cos the boat is just fine. I'd bet my first born on that
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