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Old 08-07-2013, 18:52   #46
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Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

kinda my sailing rules too! well, maybe 4.5 knots...Except he had an easier time of it...
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Old 08-07-2013, 19:27   #47
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Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Modern yacht design is heavily influenced by racing , in this regards modern boats make better progress to windward then their older counterparts. Workboats were primarily designed for load carrying, not windward work. Modern offshore racing yachts simply outperform any traditional design.

After that all you are arguing about is how comfy you feel , and that is in the eye of the beholder

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Yes, and there are more facets to all this.

I think we can see that being influenced by racing measurement rules (say IOR) is one thing while being influenced by racing design is another. Note that IOR boats were built in attempt to 'cheat' the rule - creating boats that rated higher. In the same process hulls became less controllable and rigs ended up 'rule efficient' rather than 'conditions efficient'. (Do we really need a cunningham on a cruising boat?)

Progress is from past to future and from worse to better (much as design can at times take an evident step backward). So, in my eye, the trickling from the racing crowd is what gives us better (that is: stronger, faster, more efficient) boats.

Now another aspect is what you say about the working boat. Yes, some were built for load carrying but maybe this is not where our 'yachts' come from. Maybe there is a stronger link with pilot boats - lighter, faster, and sailing pretty well to windward. After all the first to arrive was given the job. They were working, and racing, every day.

Eh. The above just my midnight mental detours. I am in a definitely very imperfect boat that did all I asked her for and then a bit more. I like performance, I was performance; but at the end of every crossing we actually wish we had sailed slower (or oceans were larger).

Cheers,
b.
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Old 09-07-2013, 09:45   #48
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Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

I dont know, I think the "modern" yacht has always been influenced by racing.... since 1851 anyway!
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Old 06-08-2013, 09:24   #49
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Re: Questions About the Wider Beams on Newer Boats

Very interesting discussion. Same comments peoples said to me at the marina in the south "Your boat is not seaworthy and can't sail in rough sea". I own a Jeanneau 39DS Performance and I like my boat because it's roomy, fast and fun to sail.

So I invited them to come on my boat for a sail and bring them in open ocean with 20ktn, gusting 22ktn wind. Up wind, we did 7.5ktn and downwind, I did 11ktn once at 25ktn gust. What's the problem with my boat? Nothing. Of course the flat bottom hit hard sometime but the boat feel strong. Really think the boat is stronger than I am... (I will do it in my pants before the boat fail)

After, they invited me on their TAYANA the first thing I realized is the speed. SLOW because of the weigh and sail configutation (short mast). The boat as tendency to break into wave better because of the hull shape. As for "Seaworthiness" not so sure about it because the noises inside the cabin is abundant, diverse and scary. On my boat, hull is lighter but they carefully attached a frame inside the boat attached to the hull so you can feel the overall strength. On the old one, hull is thicker but overall rigidity feel weaker. The other thing I found is narrow stern allow backsplash much more on the deck probably because of the lot less buoyancy compare to a large stern that stays on water instead of plunging like the bow. Finally, my boat surf more with downwind, another advantage of large stern. The old TAYANA cost 1/3 compare to my boat, that's THE BIG advantage...

CONCLUSION :

If someone own a old boat designed like a fish form (pointed front & rear) and like his boat, GREAT! If someone like a race boat inspired hull (large stern) and like his boat GREAT! There is no perfect boat, only perfect boat for each sailor!

I was in Newport, RI for a season and talked to racing people in a large carbon fiber race boat and they explain this to me: The fluid you have to deal the most in racing is not water but AIR! That's why boat look more like a plane than a fish (you don't sail underwater but on top of water). That's why mast are taller (wind is stronger the higher), That's why boat have large stern in order to surf and go double the wind speed, That's why they try to get the boat as light as possible (by putting a small 20' keel).

New production boats are designed by racing architect so those boats will look more and more like the racing mono hull.
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:10   #50
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Re: Questions About the Wider Beams on Newer Boats

Good Post!
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:35   #51
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Re: Questions About the Wider Beams on Newer Boats

Just an observation. Last year's single-handed transpac began with a couple of hundred miles of beam / close reaching, in stronger winds and seas. Guess what boat was right up there at the front of the pack? The Westsail 32, and I bet he was having a nicer ride than everyone else, too.

Of course when the race turned to a broad reach in light winds, the sleds were off into the sunset.
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:39   #52
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Re: Questions About the Wider Beams on Newer Boats

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Originally Posted by wakesurfboy View Post
Very interesting discussion. Same comments peoples said to me at the marina in the south "Your boat is not seaworthy and can't sail in rough sea". I own a Jeanneau 39DS Performance and I like my boat because it's roomy, fast and fun to sail.

So I invited them to come on my boat for a sail and bring them in open ocean with 20ktn, gusting 22ktn wind. Up wind, we did 7.5ktn and downwind, I did 11ktn once at 25ktn gust. What's the problem with my boat? Nothing. Of course the flat bottom hit hard sometime but the boat feel strong. Really think the boat is stronger than I am... (I will do it in my pants before the boat fail)

After, they invited me on their TAYANA the first thing I realized is the speed. SLOW because of the weigh and sail configutation (short mast). The boat as tendency to break into wave better because of the hull shape. As for "Seaworthiness" not so sure about it because the noises inside the cabin is abundant, diverse and scary. On my boat, hull is lighter but they carefully attached a frame inside the boat attached to the hull so you can feel the overall strength. On the old one, hull is thicker but overall rigidity feel weaker. The other thing I found is narrow stern allow backsplash much more on the deck probably because of the lot less buoyancy compare to a large stern that stays on water instead of plunging like the bow. Finally, my boat surf more with downwind, another advantage of large stern. The old TAYANA cost 1/3 compare to my boat, that's THE BIG advantage...

CONCLUSION :

If someone own a old boat designed like a fish form (pointed front & rear) and like his boat, GREAT! If someone like a race boat inspired hull (large stern) and like his boat GREAT! There is no perfect boat, only perfect boat for each sailor!

I was in Newport, RI for a season and talked to racing people in a large carbon fiber race boat and they explain this to me: The fluid you have to deal the most in racing is not water but AIR! That's why boat look more like a plane than a fish (you don't sail underwater but on top of water). That's why mast are taller (wind is stronger the higher), That's why boat have large stern in order to surf and go double the wind speed, That's why they try to get the boat as light as possible (by putting a small 20' keel).

New production boats are designed by racing architect so those boats will look more and more like the racing mono hull.
This is a true fact.

Hull forms have changed over the years, and they have definitely become flatter and with wider sterns and shorter overhangs across the board. Not just production boats, but Oyster, Swan, HR, etc., etc., etc. If you want a boat with a deep forefoot, narrow stern, and long overhangs, not even to speak about a long keel, you will hardly find a new boat -- only a few consciously retro makers still make boats like that.

The goalposts have moved towards flatter bottoms etc., but there is still a fairly wide range of forms within those new goalposts. There are boats with the beam carried right back to the transom and totally plumb bows, with a kind of wedge shape like an Open 60 racer, and then there are boats with more conservative aft sections and modest overhangs, but nearly all bottoms are flatter than they were 30 years ago.

One thing to keep in mind which is really important is that boats have gotten larger over the last 30 years. Back then, a 36 footer was considered a large cruiser, and 32 feet was probably average. Nowadays, a 45 is average and under 40 is already small. A 45 foot boat is inherently more seaworthy than a 32 foot boat, and can have a more aggressive hull shape.

So this creates a double performance benefit -- the boat is getting faster with size, and the waterline will be disproportionately longer with shorter overhangs. At the same time, the boat can tolerate a flatter bottom without excessive pounding, and can be lighter. So by going to 45 feet from 32 feet, you have profoundly greater performance than your old-fashioned 32-footer, while still being more seakindly and more seaworthy, because the size and waterlength and tonnage more than compensate for the other factors.

To put it another way, to create a real "blue water" (much abused term, but appropriate here) 32-footer you have to build with massive strength and weight for its size, and you have to use a really conservative hull shape. This boat will be very expensive to build for its size, and it will be very, very, very slow compared to a 45 footer with a more aggressive hull shape. I think it's no mystery that no one makes these truly blue water 32 footers any more.
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:49   #53
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Re: Questions About the Wider Beams on Newer Boats

Great post!!
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Old 06-08-2013, 15:14   #54
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Re: Questions About the Wider Beams on Newer Boats

One factor that has not been mentioned is the high prismatic coefficient that is present in boats with a wide beam carried aft.
They are designed to sailed flatter and with the high initial stability this is achievable in moderate conditions. In heavy conditions the associated weather helm present in gusts is a problem, particularly when under an automatic steering system.
A wide beam carried a long way aft does have many advantages in terms of accommodation, but the drawbacks need to be understood.

There is no perfect answer to the compromises involved in boat design and production. A Large beam carried a long way aft results in the largest interior volume for the least cost, especially when the reduced ballast ratio with this sort of design is taken into account.

Inexpensive is great, it enables us to afford a newer, bigger boat which has tremendous safety and seaworthy advantages, but there is some concerns that some of the latest boats are taking the trend too far. Time will tell.
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Old 06-08-2013, 21:43   #55
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Re: Questions About the Wider Beams on Newer Boats

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This is a true fact.

Hull forms have changed over the years, and they have definitely become flatter and with wider sterns and shorter overhangs across the board. Not just production boats, but Oyster, Swan, HR, etc., etc., etc. If you want a boat with a deep forefoot, narrow stern, and long overhangs, not even to speak about a long keel, you will hardly find a new boat -- only a few consciously retro makers still make boats like that.

The goalposts have moved towards flatter bottoms etc., but there is still a fairly wide range of forms within those new goalposts. There are boats with the beam carried right back to the transom and totally plumb bows, with a kind of wedge shape like an Open 60 racer, and then there are boats with more conservative aft sections and modest overhangs, but nearly all bottoms are flatter than they were 30 years ago.

One thing to keep in mind which is really important is that boats have gotten larger over the last 30 years. Back then, a 36 footer was considered a large cruiser, and 32 feet was probably average. Nowadays, a 45 is average and under 40 is already small. A 45 foot boat is inherently more seaworthy than a 32 foot boat, and can have a more aggressive hull shape.

So this creates a double performance benefit -- the boat is getting faster with size, and the waterline will be disproportionately longer with shorter overhangs. At the same time, the boat can tolerate a flatter bottom without excessive pounding, and can be lighter. So by going to 45 feet from 32 feet, you have profoundly greater performance than your old-fashioned 32-footer, while still being more seakindly and more seaworthy, because the size and waterlength and tonnage more than compensate for the other factors.

To put it another way, to create a real "blue water" (much abused term, but appropriate here) 32-footer you have to build with massive strength and weight for its size, and you have to use a really conservative hull shape. This boat will be very expensive to build for its size, and it will be very, very, very slow compared to a 45 footer with a more aggressive hull shape. I think it's no mystery that no one makes these truly blue water 32 footers any more.
Really good observation!
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Old 15-09-2013, 14:11   #56
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"To put it another way, to create a real "blue water" (much abused term, but appropriate here) 32-footer you have to build with massive strength and weight for its size, and you have to use a really conservative hull shape. This boat will be very expensive to build for its size, and it will be very, very, very slow compared to a 45 footer with a more aggressive hull shape. I think it's no mystery that no one makes these truly blue water 32 footers any more."

-
Enlightened, informative discussion. I would add that is also no mystery that someone will still os gladly pay for a 23 year old Konsort Duo that there are zero available in the States and only 2 in England.

"Massive strength and weight" and "very expensive to build" (or 3X to replace). You keep the 9"' cleats on your 45 footer and I'll keep the 13" cleats on my 28.5. LOL

EASY EASY EASY boat show shopping test: Carry a 12" ruler around (or a 11.5" piece of brochure paper) if her cleats don't pass, keep on walking.
This will save you a lot of time in line to look at a bean counter's boat.

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In Jack Giles we trust.
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Old 15-09-2013, 14:26   #57
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12 ' ruler test lol.

Its important to point out that high prismatic boat types have to be sailed differently. They are designed to be fast and flat. In heavy weather you need to reef down often a lot.

I mean many of you will have seen that modern boats can sail to hull speeds in 25 knots with three reefs and a handkerchief Jenny

You see too many people sailing these boats on their war convinced there're real' men '

They are as good or even better in heavy weather if you appreciate what to do

Dave
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Old 15-09-2013, 16:58   #58
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pirate Re: Questions About the Wider Beams on Newer Boats

Y is the W so damn near the e?
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Old 15-09-2013, 17:21   #59
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Y is the W so damn near the e?
Naw stupid iPhone it should be " ear"

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Old 15-09-2013, 17:45   #60
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Re: Questions About the Wider Beams on Newer Boats

Yeah, those beams carried aft are slow and cant survive the southern ocean!
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