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Old 08-07-2013, 06:38   #31
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Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

If your opinion and posture is that there are no compromises in a boat designed to modern trends then that is pretty laughable...

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Funny that these " inshore " yachts regularly go around the world.

All I see in this thread is more production boat bashing, ie boat snobbery

Dave
I think the Hylas range is an excellent example... The 46 (a modern beamy design by Frers) is very popular, however if you read the opinions of owners, the more classic S&S designed 49 is a significantly more seaworthy, drier and comfortable boat ..

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
You need to look at a modern Hylas, Swan and Perry designs... beamy, fast stable and strong... Take that weight of the old long overhangs and put it into the beam...
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Old 08-07-2013, 06:49   #32
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Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

While my production boat isn't really all that much extra beam and doesn't really have the wide stern of the "newer" models; if it did I would get greatly more pleasure from the extra space when at anchor etc than any loss of ride (if it really does lose something) during the small percentage of times underway that it would occur.

All I can really say based on my acturl experience between the boats I've owned is that the difference between my old Cal 39' with 12.5' beam and my current Hunter 43' with 13'10" beam is HUGE with all points both in port and at sea going to the Hunter.
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Old 08-07-2013, 07:02   #33
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Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

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Benehuntalinas are cheaper for a reason. You get what you pay for.
Benehuntalinas +1

Handy new word that says it all.
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Old 08-07-2013, 07:09   #34
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Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

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Benehuntalinas +1

Handy new word that says it all.

Nothing like a little boat bashing in the morning, but it really doesn't say much about the tradeoffs of more modern designs.
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Old 08-07-2013, 07:15   #35
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Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

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While my production boat isn't really all that much extra beam and doesn't really have the wide stern of the "newer" models; if it did I would get greatly more pleasure from the extra space when at anchor etc than any loss of ride (if it really does lose something) during the small percentage of times underway that it would occur.

All I can really say based on my acturl experience between the boats I've owned is that the difference between my old Cal 39' with 12.5' beam and my current Hunter 43' with 13'10" beam is HUGE with all points both in port and at sea going to the Hunter.



All this talk of more space per foot of length is silly. Just man up and buy a bigger boat if you need more space. I have a salty S&S design with moderately long overhangs and excellent sea keeping manners. I also have 15 1/2' of beam and acres of room. No reason to give up on actual seafaring designs just because you want more room. You just have to prioritize. If you want a bigger boat, sell the house and buy one instead of trying to shoehorn a big boat interior into a little boat.
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Old 08-07-2013, 09:03   #36
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Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

The boat I am always glad to bash some is mine.

As long as boats are used in the way they were designed to be used, it is all fine and we are enjoying safe and responsible navigation.

Very few boats are designed as 'all-rounders' and then those that were optimized will beat the all-rounder hands down in their specific sweet spot.

Boats would look differently if they were all built past the 80'ies. The point is that we have inherited so many boats from the pre-computer, pre-mass sport era. It's like apples vs. oranges.

I like them all, especially the very modern very fast and the less modern less fast ones. A boat is a dream and dreams make one go for it. If a boat makes you feel like going sailing (or spending a happy weekend tied to the dock) then I say this is the right one for you.

b.
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Old 08-07-2013, 09:18   #37
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Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

[QUOTE=Bash;1278644]Modern hull design is not just a matter of the beam being carried further aft. It also entails significantly more waterline for a given length overall. in essence, were you to view waterlines from below, the 40' yacht of today gives you the effective waterline of a 50"+ yacht of 50 years ago. At the same time, there is a corresponding increase in usable interior space.

There are chronic grumps haunting these forums who complain of any design or technology evolutions dating after the invention of the rotary phone. I love rolling these troglodytes with my "weekend condo." The bottom line is that, length-for-length, those old crab crushers can only plod along at about 60% of my speed at any given point of sail.

They will swear, of course, that modern hulls don't have the "ride comfort" of older boats. Yep: it's always more comfy going slow, isn't it?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, what I especially like is the hobbyhorsing due to the overhangs, pendulum rolling in beam seas... and love that wallowing in the troughs!
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Old 08-07-2013, 10:54   #38
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Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

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Modern hull design is not just a matter of the beam being carried further aft. It also entails significantly more waterline for a given length overall. in essence, were you to view waterlines from below, the 40' yacht of today gives you the effective waterline of a 50"+ yacht of 50 years ago..
Modern boat, old boat, as long as it doesnt sink is all I care..

Anyway, the biggest improvement in modern times on displacement hulls was the fin keel with its foil profile. A sailboat with one of those is going to make mince meat of anything similar size without, and thats what we're talking about with fast plastic fantastics...
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Old 08-07-2013, 11:18   #39
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Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

I guess you'll have to try them yourself, as it's difficult to find an unbiased opinion on an internet forum...
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Old 08-07-2013, 12:57   #40
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Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

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All this talk of more space per foot of length is silly. Just man up and buy a bigger boat if you need more space. I have a salty S&S design with moderately long overhangs and excellent sea keeping manners. I also have 15 1/2' of beam and acres of room. No reason to give up on actual seafaring designs just because you want more room. You just have to prioritize. If you want a bigger boat, sell the house and buy one instead of trying to shoehorn a big boat interior into a little boat.
Don't know what this has to do in response to the post of mine that you quoted when posting it.

Near as I can guess is that you are saying my boat isn't an "actual seafaring design". Since all I posted was my true life experience I guess in the end what you are really trying to say is that I'm an idiot and lair. In which case thanks for the valuable insight.
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Old 08-07-2013, 17:53   #41
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If your opinion and posture is that there are no compromises in a boat designed to modern trends then that is pretty laughable...

I think the Hylas range is an excellent example... The 46 (a modern beamy design by Frers) is very popular, however if you read the opinions of owners, the more classic S&S designed 49 is a significantly more seaworthy, drier and comfortable boat ..
I never said that , all boats are compromises, its the nature of the beast. Furthermore , of national sentiments apply ,US seems to favour an older less developed hull, whereas the French in particular tend to look for beamy fast racing sled types.

I've been on modern boats that were dry and comfortable in a seaway. I've been on older boats that were utter dogs in similar seaways. ( and vice versa) old boats arnt good boats , good boats are.

Dave
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Old 08-07-2013, 17:55   #42
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Only us nutters who love to give UK customs something to get excited about when they appear in places like Weymouth... Poole.. Brixham in the early hours of Dec/Jan/Feb mornings..
Ogh I did my fair share of Winter deliveries , then I older and acquired some sense !

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Old 08-07-2013, 17:59   #43
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;-)

Now that's what I call 'an opinion' ;-)))

Below is mine:

If you look at ARC and TransPac data you will find the actual difference being much narrower. Yes, modern and lighter boats (not necessarily beamier) sail faster downwind and in light airs. Very few sail 67% faster though (ban race mode ULDBs, tris and cats).

Older designs are derived from working boats which, unlike pleasure craft, did have to beat upwind (either going to work or when sailing back home). Hence their qualities.

I bet that many crab crushers would outdo you on a rough and windy upwind passage. If at all you decided to leave port with them on such a day.

I noticed very small performance margins between modern and not so modern cruising boats. It seems to me those in the potentially faster boats do not bother to trim their sails properly ... ;-)

+Love&flowers,
b.
Modern yacht design is heavily influenced by racing , in this regards modern boats make better progress to windward then their older counterparts. Workboats were primarily designed for load carrying, not windward work. Modern offshore racing yachts simply outperform any traditional design.

After that all you are arguing about is how comfy you feel , and that is in the eye of the beholder

Dave
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Old 08-07-2013, 18:01   #44
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Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I never said that , all boats are compromises, its the nature of the beast. Furthermore , of national sentiments apply ,US seems to favour an older less developed hull, whereas the French in particular tend to look for beamy fast racing sled types.

I've been on modern boats that were dry and comfortable in a seaway. I've been on older boats that were utter dogs in similar seaways. ( and vice versa) old boats arnt good boats , good boats are.

Dave
So it's October on the Chesapeake. I'm heading south in my "heavier than advertised" Passport 47 into about 25-32 knots of wind and a pretty severe chop. Having trouble making way as much as I would like motorsailing. I see a boat coming up astern, no sails at all. Eventually the Beneteau passes me, motoring along on top of the waves and I slosh along. Looked like someone on delivery to me.
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Old 08-07-2013, 18:14   #45
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So it's October on the Chesapeake. I'm heading south in my "heavier than advertised" Passport 47 into about 25-32 knots of wind and a pretty severe chop. Having trouble making way as much as I would like motorsailing. I see a boat coming up astern, no sails at all. Eventually the Beneteau passes me, motoring along on top of the waves and I slosh along. Looked like someone on delivery to me.
Delivery rules <,5knots under sails , motor goes on , times money

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