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Old 05-07-2013, 17:04   #16
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Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

It must be remembered that wide beam acted along with some other factors (yes: low ballast ratios, lost keels, e.g.) in boats that went turtle way and refused to return. Look at Grimalkin's ballast amt and distribution to see the whole picture.

Another factor is the shape of the deck and the volume and shape of the cabin trunk. Remember the deck becomes the underbody in such cases. Flat = bad, in this case.

Etc.

To be beamy, by itself, is not a sin.

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Old 05-07-2013, 17:45   #17
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pirate Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

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That's ok then , our summer just experienced a series of offshore gales upto f9, no problem for these summer boats.

In winter nothing really sails here

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Old 05-07-2013, 18:08   #18
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Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

It's a tough question beause most of the older narrow boats , were also very short waterlines. Additionally a narrow older boat may have up to 50% ballast to keep it upright. The advantage of more beam is better initial stability by hull form and less weight to carry while doing so.
Maybe if you compared boats of equal waterline length you may find the narrow ones as fast.
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Old 06-07-2013, 05:49   #19
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Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

yes.

Since you never get something for nothing there does indeed have to be some drawbacks in the "wide beam led all the way aft" trend of newer (lets call them inshore coastal cruising) production boats.

For me, its ride comfort.. they are a hard ride, particularly when the wind is forward of the beam... and since most folks just daysail that's a big "who cares" to them, its just not for me.



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Are there any compromises one needs to be overly concerned about with a wider beam boat ?
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Old 06-07-2013, 15:26   #20
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Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

I think that many contemplating a boat purchase are weighing it versus a weekend condo somewhere.To compare favorably a boat will need great interior volume ,achieved by pumping up the beam and freeboard while shoving out the accommodations to the very hull throughout at the expense of storage. The wife will have to be convinced as well so there will be amenities in the galley and head that were not present (or possible) years back.

Now we have costs , almost all manufactured products are a function of the materials from which they are made, i.e. cost/lb......there ,I have just described todays Benehuntalinas which do a great job of addressing all these considerations.

Maybe if i were to purchase one of these more contemporary craft my wife would come more often and stay longer which would be nice ,but then I couldn't.......Oh never mind.
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Old 06-07-2013, 15:56   #21
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Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

Modern hull design is not just a matter of the beam being carried further aft. It also entails significantly more waterline for a given length overall. in essence, were you to view waterlines from below, the 40' yacht of today gives you the effective waterline of a 50"+ yacht of 50 years ago. At the same time, there is a corresponding increase in usable interior space.

There are chronic grumps haunting these forums who complain of any design or technology evolutions dating after the invention of the rotary phone. I love rolling these troglodytes with my "weekend condo." The bottom line is that, length-for-length, those old crab crushers can only plod along at about 60% of my speed at any given point of sail.

They will swear, of course, that modern hulls don't have the "ride comfort" of older boats. Yep: it's always more comfy going slow, isn't it?
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Old 06-07-2013, 16:10   #22
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Originally Posted by Mystic38 View Post
yes.

Since you never get something for nothing there does indeed have to be some drawbacks in the "wide beam led all the way aft" trend of newer (lets call them inshore coastal cruising) production boats.

For me, its ride comfort.. they are a hard ride, particularly when the wind is forward of the beam... and since most folks just daysail that's a big "who cares" to them, its just not for me.
Funny that these " inshore " yachts regularly go around the world.

All I see in this thread is more production boat bashing, ie boat snobbery

Dave
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Old 06-07-2013, 16:21   #23
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Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

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I think that many contemplating a boat purchase are weighing it versus a weekend condo somewhere.To compare favorably a boat will need great interior volume ,achieved by pumping up the beam and freeboard while shoving out the accommodations to the very hull throughout at the expense of storage. The wife will have to be convinced as well so there will be amenities in the galley and head that were not present (or possible) years back.

Now we have costs , almost all manufactured products are a function of the materials from which they are made, i.e. cost/lb......there ,I have just described todays Benehuntalinas which do a great job of addressing all these considerations.

Maybe if i were to purchase one of these more contemporary craft my wife would come more often and stay longer which would be nice ,but then I couldn't.......Oh never mind.
You need to look at a modern Hylas, Swan and Perry designs... beamy, fast stable and strong... Take that weight of the old long overhangs and put it into the beam...
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Old 06-07-2013, 16:31   #24
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Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

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I would have to disagree if you are saying that necessarily makes them coastal crusiers. Compare this to cruising catamarans - they don't flip over very often, but once they do, they won't right themselves without the help of a crane. Yet they are fine as blue water boats.
Am I wrong in in thinking that a Cat catching a wave crest abeam is more akin
to two narrow beam boats ,than one boat with lets say a 12ft beam, and 29 ft long ?

Taking less wave crest to turtle, and less ability to right afterward are factors
I certainly will consider in deciding 'seaworthy' abilities of a particular boat.

Must be a rating chart about both of these issues available somewhere.
Limit of Positive Stability I believe is what one uses to know how far you
can go before you might be sailing upside down soon. And thanks to a post someone made here I
will be more inclined to want a curved cabin top. Thanks...
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Old 07-07-2013, 09:15   #25
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pirate Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

"chronic grumps" eh? I resemble that remark fer sure.

Hey, this is a great thread. As all teenagers know, age doesn't equal wisdom. As a boat shopper, I have been looking past affordable boats that
I (or more properly, my dad) would have sneered at. I don't yet have "A Sudden Attraction to Hunters" but maybe I could have. The Watkins has a shower in 27'! Yow. Do they sail? I wouldn't have thought so but I saw a video that suggests they can.

Plus, MarkJ has made a believer out of me. And if Bash can sail a Hunter, I guess I can too. I have the red hots for a SC28 but it's not what I need.

Thanks for the info.
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Old 07-07-2013, 17:40   #26
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Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

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They will swear, of course, that modern hulls don't have the "ride comfort" of older boats. Yep: it's always more comfy going slow, isn't it?
now that was a new to the point comment, it is going to sting some people in various places
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Old 07-07-2013, 18:39   #27
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Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

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(...) The bottom line is that, length-for-length, those old crab crushers can only plod along at about 60% of my speed at any given point of sail. (...)
;-)

Now that's what I call 'an opinion' ;-)))

Below is mine:

If you look at ARC and TransPac data you will find the actual difference being much narrower. Yes, modern and lighter boats (not necessarily beamier) sail faster downwind and in light airs. Very few sail 67% faster though (ban race mode ULDBs, tris and cats).

Older designs are derived from working boats which, unlike pleasure craft, did have to beat upwind (either going to work or when sailing back home). Hence their qualities.

I bet that many crab crushers would outdo you on a rough and windy upwind passage. If at all you decided to leave port with them on such a day.

I noticed very small performance margins between modern and not so modern cruising boats. It seems to me those in the potentially faster boats do not bother to trim their sails properly ... ;-)

+Love&flowers,
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Old 07-07-2013, 19:23   #28
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Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

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;-)

Now that's what I call 'an opinion' ;-)))

Below is mine:

If you look at ARC and TransPac data you will find the actual difference being much narrower. Yes, modern and lighter boats (not necessarily beamier) sail faster downwind and in light airs. Very few sail 67% faster though (ban race mode ULDBs, tris and cats).

Older designs are derived from working boats which, unlike pleasure craft, did have to beat upwind (either going to work or when sailing back home). Hence their qualities.

I bet that many crab crushers would outdo you on a rough and windy upwind passage. If at all you decided to leave port with them on such a day.

I noticed very small performance margins between modern and not so modern cruising boats. It seems to me those in the potentially faster boats do not bother to trim their sails properly ... ;-)

+Love&flowers,
b.

You will never convince someone who has purchased a cheaper production boat that its not just as good as a quality yacht which cost twice as much (because it cost twice as much to build). If you try you will be an "elitist" "production boat basher". They will give you a thousand reasons why it's "better" to have a boat with hull liners, very light construction, no backstays, core below the waterline, prefab interior, and cheap brass fittings. How overhangs are wasted space. And lots of other ideas that production builders have spent a lot of money putting in glossy magazines. Nope, they are just much much smarter than anyone who shells out for a real heavily built blue water quality cruising yacht, as that is just outdated design you are paying for.


As the guy who gets to fix all these plastic fantastics when they inevitably break, I find this attitude laughable. Benehuntalinas are cheaper for a reason. You get what you pay for.
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Old 07-07-2013, 19:53   #29
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Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

I don't see anyone bashing production boats. The fact of the matter is that modern designs are faster and roomier below decks, but at a price. Every boat is a compromise for the simple fact that different design criteria and approaches work for different applications.

I'm live aboard on a Valiant 40, which is a slowish cramped tank by comparison to most modern cruisers. I've been on plenty of Beneteaus and marveled at their cavernous interiors with heads the size of master bathrooms in condominiums. I would be lying if I said I did not covet that type of space, and even the speed of those boats in certain conditions. But I had criteria when I bought my boat that steered me away from that approach. There is no right or wrong, there is just what you want and need and what is the best "boat solution" that matches your criteria.

I've beaten to windward offshore in a seaway and smoked modern, high PHRF boats for the simple fact that the fatigue factor got to them and they had to eventually bear off. I've also been smoked on downwind reaches by those same boats. Over all they are faster, more modern, with more conveniences and innovations. On any given Sunday I'd love to have one for a variety of reasons. But I went the route I did to meet my specific needs and aspirations. Every boat is a compromise. I picked the one that best suited me.
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Old 07-07-2013, 21:35   #30
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Re: Questions about the wider beams on newer boats

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
Modern hull design is not just a matter of the beam being carried further aft. It also entails significantly more waterline for a given length overall. in essence, were you to view waterlines from below, the 40' yacht of today gives you the effective waterline of a 50"+ yacht of 50 years ago. At the same time, there is a corresponding increase in usable interior space.

There are chronic grumps haunting these forums who complain of any design or technology evolutions dating after the invention of the rotary phone. I love rolling these troglodytes with my "weekend condo." The bottom line is that, length-for-length, those old crab crushers can only plod along at about 60% of my speed at any given point of sail.

They will swear, of course, that modern hulls don't have the "ride comfort" of older boats. Yep: it's always more comfy going slow, isn't it?

Yeah well, you know, that such technology sometimes is nonexistent, after all boats are still using cleats for docking and Jabsco toilets for Pop Pop, sure there is lots of new gizmos to make things easie, but if you dont have the cash to pay for that Epoxy Vacum infusion hull with carbon reinforcments you are stick to.. 1 a cheap production boat, Polyester and shorcuts everywhere,,,, 2.. A old design , tested for years and build with some kind of care and attention,,, I bet you a cold 6pack that im going to have a better ride 30 plus beating to windward with 6 ft waves than you,,, is a matter of fact in any anchorage or harbour , the heavy dogs leave harbour in 25 to 30 and no problem, when the light boats are waiting for that kind of weather window to make the ride easy... and i come from both sides, owning a C&C 40 before, so i know how you feel sailing fast, but also i know how bad is the seamotion and the pounding when sailing to weather... saying that im still confused about the real purpose of this beamy cokpits new boats , could be the brand trying to hook new customers to the Dark side , Catamarans...???? checking Capsize ratio between a Bene sense 43 against older designs i dont see any benefit, same for comfort motion... could be im wrong...
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