questioning my choice of boats

[Dockhead]

[QUOTE=Jim Cate;2406493]

As singlehander I would stay away from a yawl or ketch rigged boat...../QUOTE]

At the risk of being flamed, I must say that if I was wanting to outfit a vessel for long passages short handed, and wanted to maximize reliability, I too would avoid either a yawl or a ketch where the mizzen boom overhung the transom, thus making a wind vane awkward or impossible to fit and use.

The usefulness of a yawl's mizzen is questionable under many points of sail, and one sees a great many such rigs being sailed as sloops in the real world. Yet, there are many who loudly praise such rigs, and they do have some advantages... just another of the many compromises that go into cruising boats.

I am reminded of a famous statement made by (IIRC) one of the Stevens brothers..."show me a yawl and I can improve both its looks and its performance with an ax" (or something like that). The yawl rig was popularized some years ago when it gave an advantage under the racing ratings in use at the time... a situation where the mizzen reduced performance somewhat less than it reduced the rating, thus providing a net corrected time advantage. Not much relationship to ocean cruising!

I doubt if the above will have the slightest impact on JC's opinions or desires, and truthfully I don't want to have such an influence. He is entitled to his opinions and prejudices and getting between any man and his lust object (boat, woman or whatever) is unkind and ill advised! So, James Cook (reincarnate??) best wishes for a successful hunt for the boat of your dreams, and good sailing to you!

Jim

We hadn't really gotten into that question, but I agree somewhat. The OP can read in the archives about the advantages and disadvantages of split rigs.

I actually like ketches, but there are some pretty hard tradeoffs involved. Contrary to what someone else above posted, I actually think ketches are easier to handle for a long-distance single hander, because the sails are smaller and you have more sail plan options, always a good thing.

I don't like yawls at all -- if the design requires another stick just for balance, there is something seriously wrong with it. So you ruin upwind performance without gaining a sail which produces any useful drive. Silly in the modern context, in my opinion.

Ketches are a different matter, or can be. They work better and better, the bigger the boat, and the higher aspect the sails -- so that you can get the masts far enough away from each other. Under 40' or 45' they probably don't make much sense. But Dashew's big ketches are absolutely wonderful.

The windage of the second mast really hurts upwind performance, so not good for the kind of sailing (like what I do) which requires getting upwind over long distances, but in the tradewinds or with a big engine and tankage and excellent motoring capabilities, this may not be a problem. Few cruising sailboats can really get upwind anyway.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

We've got a windvane on our ketch, works well (photos posted in a prior post on this thread).

The mizzen sail takes very little attention, it allows one to just drop the main instead of feeding.

Imho the mizzen doesn't create an obstacle for mounting of antennae or wind gens or the like, it provides an ideal spot to do it!

However I will agree that it does make using the dinghy more of a hassle than a walk through transom would.

This is not a challenge. It is simply a sincere question asked in a friendly tone of voice to clarify a few things.

You have a ketch with a windvane. The OP is considering purchase of a yawl.

Does your ketch's mizzen boom extend past the stern?
How high is your mizzen boom above the deck at the stern?

Have you used the windvane on the open ocean?
Have you used the windvane on all points of sail?
Has it functioned well on all points of sail?

[Sandero]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

JC, I've noticed that there is never enough room on your boat for everything, but somehow there's always enough room for what you really need. Folks circumnavigate on <25 foot yachts and somehow manage. Other folks have >45 foot yachts and complain about lack of storage space.

FWIW, Ann and I have done long passages on 30, 36 and now 46 foot boats. They have all been "full", but have had vastly different storage volumes. We've never been held back by lack of storage or tankage, but we have had to employ different strategies and mind sets to succeed. You can do the same, I bet, and will make the BI 40 work for you.

Good luck and good cruising.

Jim

These past few weeks I have been going through the many lockers on Shiva... a Contest 36 which I have lived aboard in Caribbean and done many off shore passages on... which I am no longer doing. I sold the water maker... but it was useful at the time.

I have extensive spares which fill up most of the lockers... but I still have empty ones. It's crazy what I stowed on board... perhaps sensible when you are seriously off the grid... but now it's over the top... so I am removing a lot of stuff I never used and likely never will. I found my old Line7 foulies... with some mildew spots. I can't even remember wearing them! And this includes a suit and separate top and bottom... 4 pairs of boots... don't wear... why 4? 3 small vacuums...enough screws, blots, washers and hose to stock a hardware. paint, solvents, hoses of every type and diameter... engine spares..half a dozen spare pumps... what seems line miles of line and wire... spare mainsheet and 2 sets of runners... and on and on And the garage is full stuff I removed... 3 inflatable pumps....4 gas tanks... wire, 3 VHF radios... I gave one icom hand held to a friend from SailNet... He uses it and loves it!

++++

I contacted BoatUs with an idea... assign one day to BOAT FLEA MARKET ad every marina. Boaters can give, sell,, trade of buy or stuff they and others keep on boats,

I hate to throw away good stuff.. and would love to see this stuff used... as most is serviceable even if it isn't the latest and the greatest.

Why not an annual Boat Marina Flea Market Day?????????

[Steadman Uhlich]

I think a discussion like deserves a few photos to illustrate the boat being discussed.

Here is a photo showing a BI40 yawl in cruising mode with a dinghy on deck and towing one too.

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by Steady Hand

This is not a challenge. It is simply a sincere question asked in a friendly tone of voice to clarify a few things.


You have a ketch with a windvane. The OP is considering purchase of a yawl.



Does your ketch's mizzen boom extend past the stern?

How high is your mizzen boom above the deck at the stern?



Have you used the windvane on the open ocean?

Have you used the windvane on all points of sail?

Has it functioned well on all points of sail?

No problem.

Yes our boat is a ketch, however being so small there isn't room to keep the mizzen boom contained inboard. The boom extends roughly 2' past the stern at a height of 3 ish feet above the deck.

I have crossed the Gulf of Mexico a few times with this windvane, it performed well with one exception that I think I pointed out already earlier in the thread. When the boat is beating (something that gentlemen cruisers are not to do) the mizzen wash lays it over. However a side affect of beating is twofold. 1. The boat is extremely well balanced and can carry on for miles unattended anyway. 2. The apparent wind on the mizzen mast mounted wind gen means there is plenty of power to drive the electric pilot.

All in all, the windvane works well from a close reach to a run. Once the wind is aft of the beam the mizzen sail is struck anyway to prevent it from rounding the boat up. The only real pain is to align and lay over the wind paddle when tacking or gybing.

I honestly think our Bimini has been more a detriment to the windvane performance than the mizzen!

[Sandero]

Oh.. I forgot enough power and hand tools to equip a wood shop

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

No problem.

Yes our boat is a ketch, however being so small there isn't room to keep the mizzen boom contained inboard. The boom extends roughly 2' past the stern at a height of 3 ish feet above the deck.

I have crossed the Gulf of Mexico a few times with this windvane, it performed well with one exception that I think I pointed out already earlier in the thread. When the boat is beating (something that gentlemen cruisers are not to do) the mizzen wash lays it over. However a side affect of beating is twofold. 1. The boat is extremely well balanced and can carry on for miles unattended anyway. 2. The apparent wind on the mizzen mast mounted wind gen means there is plenty of power to drive the electric pilot.

All in all, the windvane works well from a close reach to a run. Once the wind is aft of the beam the mizzen sail is struck anyway to prevent it from rounding the boat up. The only real pain is to align and lay over the wind paddle when tacking or gybing.

I honestly think our Bimini has been more a detriment to the windvane performance than the mizzen!

Thank you for answering my questions.

Here are my concerns with a wind vane installation on a YAWL:

1. Will the yawl's mizzen sail interfere with the use or effectiveness of a windvane?

2. Will the mizzen boom affect the proper operation of the windvane, or cause problems when tacking or gybing the boat?

While I appreciate your answers based on your experience, I do think that more examples would be helpful, because of the differences of boats and windvane models.

I did take a look at the photo you posted. I could be wrong, but it appears to me that the the windvane "paddle" or "air vane" (the part that sticks up in the air) is higher than the mizzen boom. Or, put another way, it does appear the mizzen boom would swing into the air vane if tacking or gybing.

Just to clarify, does that happen when you tack your boat? Does the paddle have to be taken down or off or held down prior to tacking or gybing?

In other words, does the windvane paddle (the part that sticks up high in the air) interfere with your tacking or gybing the mizzen boom?

Again, I suspect that there may be differences with each boat and the combination of boat and windvane design. I am going to start a new thread related to this issue to focus on it. This is not to disregard your answer or experience, but rather to try to solicit responses from others with different boats and wind vane models and with yawls.

While I have seen many ketches with windvanes, I don't recall ever seeing a yawl with one.

[barnakiel]

With solar power, there is no way you can have too much. We fitted our boat originally with one 75W panel (2003). We added another 75W in 2013. So in a 7m long boat (double-ender) we have 150W solar and with today's technology we could have about 210W in the same footprint. And I can easily imagine having twice that without much worry about footprint and cost. I would be quite happy with a 500W package here and why not.

Always mind on a bit cloudy day the solar juice will trickle down to 20% of its max capacity, or less.

And this all from a minute and very basic boat.

Solarway, you cannot have too much. Panels are cheap, light and simple to mount and control. And there is always something you can do wit any excess on the most sunny days (e.g. make water, ice, or both).

Panels are quiet, have no moving parts, they are virtually service free. Fit and forget. Sell off when back home and no longer required.

Cheers,
b.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Here is a link to the thread I started on the topic of Windvanes on Ketches and Yawls.

I did this so that others in the future will be able to find the topic more easily and so it can focus the discussion on that topic and contain more examples of other boats.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ll-185806.html
___________

To SAILMONKEY:
Since you have a photo of your boat and have posted some good answers to my earlier questions in this thread, I encourage you to simply copy/paste your comments into the new thread too, along with your photo.

[estarzinger]

hmmm . . . . overall comment the BI 40 is a nice boat and will go RTW very well. Back when we did our first RTW it would have been a queen of the fleet, largest nicest cruising boat in many harbors, so the size and build is perfectly fine.

As to the yawl rig . . . many cruising yawls use the aft mast primarily as a radar and wind vane pole. But if you get into the sail plan intricacies, it can be used for much more than that - balancing the boat, reversing out of anchorages under sail, setting extra easy to handle reaching sails, etc. And you can just a vane just fine - yes, there will be some small complexities with them boom but they can be managed just fine.

So, it is a fine boat that will do the job you are describing.

But is it the 'perfect' cruising boat . . . well . . . . probably not . . . . such a thing probably does not even exist . . . . but you could get a 1000 page thread debating it here.

Don't let "perfect" be the enemy of "good".

[Don C L]

These might be of interest:
Yawl rig and self steering ?

Wind vane self steering with a mizzen mast?

https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/y...teering.57456/

Yawl Self Steering

Duckworks - Balancing the Helm

I see some are saying you can get her to self-steer with a yawl rig, and there may some heavy weather advantages

There must be someone here who is sailing a yawl with a vane. I can imagine that even if the mizzen boom is high enough, the draft from the mizzen would affect the vane upwind... so maybe don't use the mizzen upwind? Or the vane?

[CaptJamesCook]

Thanks Don those were very helpful links

[CaptJamesCook]

Last two months I Have been sailing Honeymoon now with PO.

Sailed it with 10 different sail combinations so far. I find it truly incredible, but just goes to show how sheltered my life i.s

Favorite sail so far mizzen Stay Sail. I like the Spinnaker but too much for one person..
Maiden single handed her Last Sunday.

[CaptJamesCook]

Sailed her out Knubble bay to Booth Bay to Sheepscot bay out around Newagen and around Squirrel Island and back to Robinhood Marine past Southport.

All in all good day but when I got back mooring ball anchor line was tangled on two crab pod floats. I worked almost 10-15 min. hanging over side trying to untangle, frustrating to say the least. Finally gave up and called Habour master to come out in skiff get it untangled. It even took him 20 min.. These guys any more. they dropped two on my mooring ball and one 10 feet off my stern.Which made it more difficult to catch my mooring line. I have to admit I did get a lot of practice approaching my mooring ball yesterday. The tide( moves 8'-9') and the wind slightly different directions of flow. This was my first attempt short handed on a mooring ball It was also only my5t time to attempt mooring period. I have always had a slip.

[Matt Johnson]

With high current or wind, try backing up (stern first) to the mooring... go into the direction of the current and grab the mooring from the stern. Tie it off to the stern, and if you want, you can rotate the boat to face forward easily with another line ran outside the lifelines and shrouds to the bow. It's the only way I could do it singlehand as I needed to control throttle, steering and grab the ball all within seconds.

Matt